MM Vince i didnt want to get into any sort of conflict i was only stateing my views to help make a set of rules that would suit beginner robotsand not make it too limiting . .. I have been trying out many ideas over the last two years to come up with cheap reliable speed controlers that beginers can make them selves out of next to nothing and have pwm control.

I have now built 3 suitable types of cheap controlers .I have sold a couple of sets to younger builders that couldnt make them their selves $40 for a set of 2 controlers ($20 each)these are made from drill trigers and micro switches the builders just ad their own servo's.
My second type is servo boards switching relays and the other is useing servo boards to make pwm through fetts and also switch useing paralell servos with rotyary switches or relays .. i had a set in T2M at robo wars .

If these builders buy two drills to make a robot then they can use the trigers for speed control the motors and gear boxes for drive the bateries for power and the battery cases for the speed controler boxes and the origional drill chargers to recharge them until they can afford something better..so thats most of the drive train and power and controlers and charging already for around$36 give ot take the drill prices(minus the servos which they will probaly get 3 of when they buy a radio) if they make the drill controlers them selves.
I am curently writeing up a tutiorial on useing triggers for this purpose and a single servoboard - drill -Fett relay controler that can be used on a single chanel as a fail safe .

I already have 3 ibcs for my own robots and dont have any thoughts of entering this comp my self . The only reason i keep trying to make cheaper controlers is so i can pass this info on to the younger builders just entering the sport ..

no question about it ,if we are to grow as an rc sport in this country LONG TERM we have to split the robots into classes ...if that means limiting certain things then fine ...as jake stated if dyrodium drew jolt in his first battle the other day and got smashed to a million bits then many kids would say ......ohh im not doing this anymore,
when anyone puts time and effort into anything they like to be able to battle against robots of equal ability how we catorigise classes well thats the challenge .....but to say it wont happen is stupid ,it has to .........every other form of sport on the planet is graded ,so we must be the same ...................and i dont think weight is enough it has to be looked at from weapon perspective .
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Well, i found that micro-switching are an easy, and fairy reliable way of getting your bot moving for less $$$. Also, if I WAS drawn against Jolt (which i will be), i have no problem getting a whole side ripped off (gives me something to do!), however the last thing i want is to loose my reciever, which cost a fair bit. What if found in starting this hobby (which was fairly recently), is that, after the remote ($200), you can build a bot for next to nothing.
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i think it would be the perfect thing to do if you where holding a robot building course or something like that at a school.
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www.demon50s.com - Minimoto parts
http://www.youtube.com/user/HyzerGlen - Videoooozzz

I can understand peoples caution and I would normally agree, but hey! Why not give it a go! What is there to lose! Nothing! Keep the rules vague and simple, human nature says someone is going is going to try a swifty whatever rules you put up, if so mod the rules the next round, K.I.S.S just get to the bugger off the ground, its not like there's big money at stake. If the response is luke warm after a good trial period - torch the idea, but until then launch all tubes!
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"Limitation shows the Master."

The first page has been updated with some rule changes and modifications based on ideas and thoughts from some of you .

Various Melb schools have shown interest in this format, and possibly a separate school series further down the track .
I will be touring some of them with the repaired Vincent in the next few months .

The intent of this format is to provide enthusiastic but financially limited , builders with a simple competition to start in .

Some of the restrictions are to restrain the cost and make this format easier to teach and manage for me . Any volunteers would be gratefully accepted .

There needs to be clear differences between the "feeder" comp and the "main" comp or people would simply remain in the "feeder" comp forever

There is potential for our experimental relay controller to provide "very" limited proportional control in the future , and if so I will include this (and similar options) in the future rules.

The “bash” web site is now up at
www.botbash.robowars.org

enjoy
moth

I hope you are successful.
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So even the rain that falls isn't actually going to fill our dams and our river systems

I notice that your rules require a legal radio. Brett uses different wording "Tele-operated robots must be radio controlled by standard Hobby Radio Control Equipment". This allows the use of radios that are not legal for ground use, including 36MHz units.
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So even the rain that falls isn't actually going to fill our dams and our river systems

a good point Philip.

Rick, I'd advise wording it in a similair way so you dont imply responsibility for enforcing this. Operation of any particular radio transmitter is (and should be) the legal responsibility of the individual, not the organisation.

(Except for the Police, who apparently managed to be the ONLY organisation to ever gain a blanket approval for their members to transmit high power microwave radars without individual licencing. gee, I wonder why ? )
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Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

Maximum size
All bots must sit flat inside a 1m long x .7m wide x .7m high “box”

I thought we could biud em as big as we want as long as it fits threw the arena door?

Motor type allowed

Confirmed ”battery drill” type motors and gearboxes only in the range of 7.2 to 14.4v . Exemption could be granted for other 12v motors eg: car window winders / wipers

I thought only petrol motors arent allowed and why only up to 14.4v drills? a few peeps use 18v or more drills or eaven 9.6v or 12v running at twice the voltage?

Batteries allowed
All sizes or combinations of sealed lead acid batteries , but to a maximum voltage of 12v only – Ni-cads or similar battery types are not allowed . no combinations that create voltages higher that 12 are allowed.

Why not over 12v? allmost all peeps use more then 12v.

Radio control system
All legal radio controlled systems are allowed to a max of 5 channels

Why not over 5 channels? what if you are only using 2 channels and only have a 6 ch radio?

Weapons
No external “high energy” spinning weapons, including all forms of saws , rotating bars and discs . No projectile weapons unless tethered to the firing robot are allowed . No “High pressure” pneumatics are allowed , but “low pressure” will be considered .“Drill” heads are allowed as long as the chuck is the “keyed” type of no more than 10mm internal diameter and the drill bit does not exceed 15 mm . All sharp edges must have suitable “covers” fitted when not actually physically inside the arena . this includes the pits.

Why no saws and spinning weapons?

Motor control system
Relays , servo switches or similar only . No elecronic proportional motor , speed controllers or gyroscopic controllers of any sort are allowed to be used . Actual modified "Drill trigger" controllers can get special approval as long as they are truly "non commercial" and remain in the spirit of this competition.

Well allmost everyone has proportional speed controllers and they are allso the safest form of controlle.

Fail safe

A clearly visible external orange light indicating the failsafe is engaged is required on all robots .

Will be very hard to do.

Banned materials items and things – short list (expect it to grow)

Titanium , Kevlar , specialized metals and materials

Personnaly i think if they want to spend the money then go ahed it dosent mean they are then invincible and as for kevlar why not?

You can safely bet that all expensive or exotic materials will become banned as they are not in the "spirit" of this competition . [/quote]

The sprit of the comp is to have fun and build the best machiene you can and watch it eather get killed or kill someone elses so like i sed before if they want to spend the money then go ahed it dosent mean they are then invincible.

Well thats my say and i think you should stick to the orig rules as another thing if someone builds a bot to comply woth those rules then they are only realy gonna have a chance at you arena and are going to be disavantaged if they wanted to fight in other arenas like side tracked.

Or am i just being picky?
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Tim Team Reaper.

Understand first Tim, that this is intended to be a *beginners* class.

Somewhere where people who are still learning how to solder, wire up relays and stop their wheels falling off can play without being chewed to bits in their first fight by experienced veteran builders.. Most of the rules are with that in mind..


>> All bots must sit flat inside a 1m long x .7m wide x .7m high box
> I thought we could biud em as big as we want as long as it fits threw the arena door?

I dont know why This is important, no doubt Rick has a reason.

>> Confirmed battery drill & type motors and gearboxes only
>> in the range of 7.2 to 14.4v . Exemption could be granted
>> for other 12v motors eg: car window winders / wipers

The emphasis here is on *cheap*. If you want to use custom wound brushless motors with Neodynium magnets, you go into the "pro" class. The allowed motors are known to be under $20 each..

>> why only up to 14.4v drills? a few peeps use 18v or more drills
>> or eaven 9.6v or 12v running at twice the voltage?

Yes, but not with Relay/Servo controllers. Most of these bots will likely not be running an ESC, and keeping a motor together under the shock loading of a sudden 12v on/off is hard enough. 24v with relay control would result in instant busted motors.

>> All legal radio controlled systems are allowed to a max of 5 channels
> Why not over 5 channels? what if you are only using 2 channels
> and only have a 6 ch radio?

I imagine Cost is the idea behind this rule again, although theres really no bots that I know of that use more than 4 channels anyway, so its probably not needed.. but probably rick trying to stop richer people buying expensive 7channel PCM radios and having an advantage over those who can only afford a 2/3 channel AM

>> No external high energy spinning weapons
>> No projectile weapons unless tethered to the firing robot are allowed
>> No High pressure pneumatics are allowed , low pressure will be considered
>> Drill heads are allowed as long as the chuck is the keyed type of no more than 10mm internal diameter and the drill bit does not exceed 15 mm

>Why no saws and spinning weapons?

Safety for young kids, Avoiding destruction of their (probably weakly constructed) first bots and discouraging them from continuing on to learn when they get a pile of scrap back first time out.

I dont see why the chuck needs to be the keyed type though considering most battery drills are of the keyless type. Rick ??

>> Relays , servo switches or similar only
>> Actual modified "Drill trigger" controllers can get special approval
>Well allmost everyone has proportional speed controllers and they
> are allso the safest form of controller

Cost again Tim. Any ESC setup is going to cost a minimum of $150-$300.. The idea here is for Schoolkids who get $10/week pocket money to stand a chance.. someone with an ESC will naturally have an advantage over them.

Also, Rick wants to help teach young kids the sport of building Robots and understanding how they work, and relay control is hard enough to teach young kids who arent even sure what a relay is, much less trying to explain a MosFet PWM H-Bridge.

>> A clearly visible external orange light indicating the failsafe is engaged
> Will be very hard to do.

Easy to do with the Pic-axe-Relay-Controller, and not that difficult in other circumstances.

>> Banned materials items and things..Titanium , Kevlar , specialized metals and materials
> Personnaly i think if they want to spend the money then go ahead

Cost again. If you want to play with exotic materials, go play in the Pro Class.. Remember, we are trying to build bots for less than $100 here..

> The sprit of the comp is to have fun and build the best machiene you can

The Spirit of *THIS* category is for young builders to learn and have fun in. You want to play in the Pro class, go ahead, thats what its there for.

> Or am i just being picky?

No, I just think you misunderstood what this class is for... Its not intended for people who are already out there fighting and know how to keep their wheels on, charge their batteries, make their radio work, weld, etc etc..

Its for the young kid who says "Dad, I want you to help me build a robot !!", and Dad goes "Umm, well, lets see I have a few screwdrivers and a hacksaw in the garden shed", then asks one of the pro competitors how much they've spent, would be unlikely to get an answer of less than $1,000 and has to say "sorry Timmy, cant afford it" (and have no idea how)

I think its a great idea, and it will not only encourage young minds to have a go, but will also give the ones that like it a chance to learn before moving into the pro class, and will give us some "Filler" battles to give the Pro's more time to charge their batteries and make repairs as the pro class bots get more destructive.
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i like the concept and the rules ...good to see someone working for the future The sport has to be graded to suit beginners and experienced builders as well ............not everyone has time to rebuild bots after eveery event because it got smashed by an active weapon ...but still likes the power bot concept like the tornado and storm type robots .....
put it this way if we had a non weapon grade in sydney i would be in that comp for sure ,not because i dont like spinners etc ,but because with work commitments etc im limited to time spent on building and repairing and that type of grade reduces that time..great to see thinking beyond the smashing crunching stuff ,well done
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Ok i understand now why most of the rules are as they are now i know it is a separet catagory class "begginers class"

With the radio tho there isnt much advantage is there with having a more expensive radio?

Wont it be a problem for the people who may have a 6ch radio or an expensive radio that they are able to borrow of someone or allready have one with there rc car but they cant use it and have to buy another unkneeded radio controle?

Allso ww motors are found cheap so if they were allowed then maby there can be a rule that you are allowed more voltage of you are using such motors?
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Tim Team Reaper.

I can tell you that buying a 7ch PCM Radio instantly eliminated all my radio control problems. (as it did for the Kero's too I believe) at a cost of about $450 though.. So there definitely is an advantage to having a more expensive radio.

It is possible to get cheaper radios to work as Gary (Rotwang) and Jake (Plan-B) has proved.. it just takes more fiddling and care with shielding and antenna's and opto-isolators and things.

The biggest cheap improvement we've found so far seems to be get up into the 72 / 75mhz bands.. the shorter antenna's required, and presumably less interference from the motors up that high makes it much easier, and you can buy a 75mhz 3channel stick or wheel radio from tower hobbies and land it here for around $100.

Oh.. and wrap the receiver in a good layer of soft foam.. The Aircraft guys do it, and after several of us having had receivers suddenly go deaf and develop the jitters after a fight, we understand why now..
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Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

Well, i think it's interesting and i would most certainly give it ago (cataclysm fits almost all those rules!). Also, what is meant by "low pressure" pnumatic systems, are you refering to el bravo as a high pressure system, or the judge, with 2000psi or something crazy?

Would also be good if something like this was worked out in each states arenas (ie, marayong), as if someone can't afford an esc, you can hardly expect them to travel interstate to compete.

By the way, i get about $50 a week, and building a bot has been hard enough, let alone heaps of people have given things to me!
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