I've just been thinking. Have we been doing it the American or European way.

The american way is that the robot is weighed fully loaded with the consumable. So if its a CO2 pneumatic flipper then it is weighed with a full tank of gas. The same goes with any fuel for engines and weapons. This was how it was done at Battlebots.
The europeans weigh the robots with all the tanks empty. Although they have now set the limit to 600g of CO2 for feather weights. This was the Robot Wars method.

The yanks complain that the poms robot weigh 600g more at the start of the fight which gives them an advantage, the poms would complain that the yanks weight 600g more at the end of the fight, giving them the advantage.

I'm asking do we count consumables in the robots weight or not? Our rule set is drafted from the American rules but every robot I have seen with consumables (eg, Marauder and Hellcat) have been weighed empty. I would like to know what our stance is before we start getting the pneumatic in Devastator ready for a fight in America. Personally I don't want to literally loose 600g of weight into thin air.

BTW that would be the diffenition of a consumable in a robot. Something that at the end of the fight can't be swepted up and put back into the robot.

It seems logical not to count it, but it would be an interesting point to raise with water weapons in the ultibots... should that count too?
Will be interesting to see which way the pole goes.
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YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

hmm I never really thought about it, but Stealth was always weighed full (and I went some some effort to make sure it was under weight even with the heavier steel tank in it!).
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The Engine Whisperer - fixer of things

David Calkins said that he would like to change the RFL pneumatic rules to the FRAs rules.

"I do agree that the RFL should update it's pneumatic policies, so that's something you can see us giving in on... "

Similar statments have been made by other American flipper builders.

I would like to use the FRA rules on CO2 including the weight allowance for consumables.
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So even the rain that falls isn't actually going to fill our dams and our river systems

I dont have time for a detailed response here right now, but in principle I think the bots should be weighed full, and have no allowance for consumables.

If you start extra for consumables, where do you stop ?

Can I coat the outside of the robot in an inch thick layer of solid CO2 and call it ablative armour ? How about running multiple batteries and ejecting them when they are drained ? Can I carry an extra Kilo of gas to make sure my flipper never runs out of puff, then vent it at the end of the fight ? Then why cant I carry an extra battery and drump it ?

I can think of other stupid examples that rules like this would allow too..

I'd KISS. You should weigh no more than "x" on your way into the arena. period.
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quote:

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Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:
Can I coat the outside of the robot in an inch thick layer of solid CO2 and call it ablative armour ? How about running multiple batteries and ejecting them when they are drained ? Can I carry an extra Kilo of gas to make sure my flipper never runs out of puff, then vent it at the end of the fight ? Then why cant I carry an extra battery and drump it ?

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I can see people rasing it as a safety issue, weighing the bot full of gas, IC, Flamethrower fuel etc.

The other major factor is if we are going to have a world standard whatever we decide will ultimately have to conform to the world standard.

For what it is worth my opinion is that the bot should be weighed fully charged and ready to fight and no weight bonus for consumables.

There is a lot of energy etc in those fuels and gases why should people who use them get a bonus for using them?

Its one of the odd things with the RFL FRA where certain people wonted to keep there 12 KG but then get there gas on top for free.

Ok, some of my examples were silly, I'll admit..

But I dont see why "things the bot needs to fight" shouldnt be included in the weight. If jettisoning parts isnt permissable, then why should jettisoning air or fuel be allowed ?
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Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people

I say design for the weight limit with a full tank, and if you happen to be allowed to weigh in with it empty then it's a bonus, and you can add some armour or something

Another question is, what happens in a situation where bots are weighed on their way into the arena for the fight?
They'd have to "fuel up" in the arena, which mean delays for others.

The only way it can be standardised and fit in with all competitions is for consumables to be included in the weight.
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The Engine Whisperer - fixer of things

The big issue with co2 is also the weather. If you need them weighed with a full tank, on a hot day your robot will not be as heavy as on a cold day. Simply because you cant squeeze more co2 in the bottles without them popping their burstdisk or pressure relief device.

Therefore we choose to weigh them without co2, so we know what they could weigh in perfect conditions. So 12 or 100kg without gas, makes 12.6 kg or 102kg with gas.

I'm with Brett on this one - if my consumable (electricty) has to be weighed in the form of batteries, then a flipper or flamethrower's consumables should also be weighed. Setting the limit 100g lower for this type of bot sounds OK at first, but we then have to check that the consumable is really limited to 100g and that starts to get difficult.
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Australian 2015 Featherweight champion
UK 2016 Gladiator champion

I do auto LPG, Car AC and Drag Race N2O so I understand how gas that is liquid in pressurised containers changes in volume with temperature and can reach critical temps and pressures.

I haven’t looked into the rules for bot CO2 systems but I am surprised that you are allowed to totally fill bottles.

With everything I am involved with bottles are stamped with there maximum weight which allows for expansion.

If you totally fill a cold Co2 bottle it will vent or explode if it heats up enough under the bright lights or flame attack in the arena. Relief valves have been known to stick, I have seen an LPG bottle that split open after being overfilled and left in the sun.

If the bottle is sized properly for the weight of gas you are permitted it should be possible to get the right amount of gas into it under any temp extreme likely to be encountered in a robot comp.

If you are decanting from one bottle to another setting things up so you are taking liquid gas out of your big bottle and if necessary slightly cooling your small bottle before you start and sitting it on a good set of scales so you know when it has its legal weight of gas.

quote:

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Originally posted by leo-rcc:
The big issue with co2 is also the weather. If you need them weighed with a full tank, on a hot day your robot will not be as heavy as on a cold day. Simply because you cant squeeze more co2 in the bottles without them popping their burstdisk or pressure relief device.

Therefore we choose to weigh them without co2, so we know what they could weigh in perfect conditions. So 12 or 100kg without gas, makes 12.6 kg or 102kg with gas.

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Ok, compromise. You can weigh your robot with empty batteries.

As a rule my robots are way underweight anyway (Hannibal went in the FRA champs at 91.4kg with a full bottle, Hannibalito 11.6kg), but i understand that there is always tension on the weight rule.

The reason robotwars favored co2 so heavily is simply because you need to put more parts in the robot for co2 to work then an electrical weapon. And for variation it made sense to give co2 weapons an edge, so more people would build co2 robots. All for the show, because robotwars was always a tv show first, a competition second. Furthermore mentorn took into account that robots would be built with standard stock pneumatics which also weighs quite heavy, even though this is pretty much no longer the case for any of our robots anymore. Within the FRA the robotwars allowance has been continued because most of our rules are perpetuated from robotwars anyway.

For me it doesn't matter that much, in my filosophy is that you can build to 100kg's, wether you put 1 bottle in or 6. If the rules give me a 2 kg edge, fine, but i dont really need it. And it doesn't matter to me if my opponents weigh 100kg, 102kg, 12kg, 12.6kg, 13.6kg, or 14.2kg. Ill flip them all, axe them all, or spin them all.

quote:

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Originally posted by kkeerroo:


CO2 weighs the same regardles of temperature. It is the pressure that is variable with temp.

There is a big safety warning on all paintball CO2 tanks which state that the bottle is not to be over filled. The max weight on the bottle is the maximum allowable weight of gas in the bottle, not the maximum capacity.

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