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Marayong XVIII season III
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Nick
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Laughing Yeah, I rang Glen to say I was running late and still beat him there. I think my call actually woke him up!
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Post Sun May 28, 2006 7:37 pm 
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dyrodium
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LOL yeah he was in the shower when I rang him Laughing
Think of yesterday as the "bludge" event of the year lol.
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Post Sun May 28, 2006 7:38 pm 
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Glen
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lol if anybody thinks i get up before 12pm you are sorely mistaken Very Happy i remember when i used to be up at like 5am i was that excited about going to an event heheh.

setting time limits sounds good to me.


quote:
LOL yeah he was in the shower when I rang him


bath... get your facts right XD
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Post Sun May 28, 2006 8:04 pm 
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Valen
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with the double elimination system that we run now theres no way around the final being single elimination.

the only answer is to have 2 finals, or go to the points system.

sounds like a good day was had by all, shame i missed it.
We hope to be finished moving into our new place soon, and be back into bot building.
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Post Sun May 28, 2006 9:36 pm 
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Nick
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Perhaps next time we can try out the roundrobin competition? We need some more discussion on how it works though. At this event, we talked about it and the general feeling was that it needs to have simpler scoring. It also needs a way to make sure the matches happen at a good pace ie no more than 30 minutes apart and hopefully less.

I was reading through the Wikipedia entry ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round-robin_%28sports%29 ) and the system will need some tweeking for a bot competition. In the classis system, as bots get knocked out of competition due to damage, we will either need to insert dummy entries or record losses (forfiets) against bots multiple times. That will work in the event but will skew the Kerrison's ranking system horribly if your bot is totalled in round one. We need a way for a bot to skip a round or two for repairs, then resume their positions in a later round. The best way I can see is to give bots that don't have an opponent for a round a bye. The question then is: does that bye count as an automatic win or as no outcome either way? I would say a bye counts as a win, except that at the end of the day, the remaining few bots would accumilate a bunch of easy wins...

A few other changes would be needed: time will be critical and to make this system work well, we will need to run matches at set intervals with instant forfiet if your bot is not ready. That's not as bad as with double elimination as you can keep on fighting in later rounds. We willneed to figure out how many rounds can be fought in a day; the results will be skewed if we run out of time in the middle of a round.
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Post Sun May 28, 2006 10:39 pm 
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Valen
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new thread at
http://robowars.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=812
(rules)
alternatives to double elimination
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Post Sun May 28, 2006 11:08 pm 
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Nick
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OK, there are 11 more videos of the event at http://video.botclips.net/Events/NSW/Marayong_18/

They are taken from a different angle on Jeff's camera and are hi-res (watch out for the 36Mb melee fight!)

I think this event now holds the title of best video coverage Very Happy Good work Glen, getting those clips up so fast!
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Post Sun May 28, 2006 11:44 pm 
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Bort
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@Nick. For a long time we have had that system in place for a while and has not seemed to have too much problem. Was used in the case of Robowars in Melb and Bris. Once in the grand final its single elim. No rematch. The losers side is usually harder ie more fights. However with smaller number of robots the losers side is about the same.

Stealth at melb came through the losers. It fought heaps and heaps of matches to get there though. The winner fought about 3-4 compared to stealth 6-7.

Only 7 bots means less matches on the losers side though.

Post Mon May 29, 2006 1:45 am 
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Daniel
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick:
In the classis system, as bots get knocked out of competition due to damage, we will either need to insert dummy entries or record losses (forfiets) against bots multiple times. That will work in the event but will skew the Kerrison's ranking system horribly if your bot is totalled in round one. We need a way for a bot to skip a round or two for repairs, then resume their positions in a later round.


It wouldn't effect the scoring as long as you remember to write the fights down in the order that they happened during the day. If at the beginning of the compitition Bot A is written down as fighting Bot B, but if that fight couldn't happen until after Bot B fought Bot C because the owner of Bot A was too lazy to get out of the bath, then you have to post the results to me so that I see Bot B vs Bot C before Bot A vs Bot B.

Make sense? The order they actaully happen in is more important then how it should of happened.

Post Mon May 29, 2006 7:58 am 
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Nick
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That's not quite what I meant; in the RR system we would have a number of rounds where the bots are paired for a match. If a bot was totalled in round one and couldn't continue, then it would be recorded as losing to all the other bots in the subsequent rounds, even though those matches never actually took place. In other sports using roundrobin, a team can't be eliminated by damage so they always compete in every scheduled match.

The exact order of matches within a round doesn't really mater since there is no dependancies. For each round, every bot fights, forfiets or has a bye; there is no rescheduling outside a round.

My point is that with the double elimination tree, if a bot is totalled early on, it simply 'dissapears' from the comp, which doesn't have so much as a negative effect on it's rank as recording a bunch of losses by default.

The roundrobin system doesn't collapse like an elimination tree, so we have to either record a bot as having a heap of losses or fill it's position with a dummy until it can resume, or we give the bots with disabled partners a bye and give them a win point.
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Post Mon May 29, 2006 10:18 am 
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Daniel
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Oh, those are just byes. If nothing happens in the arena, then happens to the scoring either. Exactly the same as any other compitition type. Whats the problem?

Post Mon May 29, 2006 11:56 am 
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Nick
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Its mainly semantics. We would have to agree that a bot withdrawing due to damage gives it's partner a bye rather than itself a loss. In a normal RR sporting event, withdrawing due to injury would be almost unheard of and we would have to award the bots that get byes as winners so as not to penalise them.
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Post Mon May 29, 2006 12:25 pm 
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chrisjon65
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whats this about jolt not fighting till 4pm Rolling Eyes crikey the bloke has one day off and it all goes to sh&^%$ t
ive nagged and nagged for years about streamlining times and thanks bort for helping out on the issue as im over it ..
my time battling robots is really precious to mitch and i and when i do get time to do it we want to battle non stop all day .
all i can say is lucky i wasnt there i would of pissed everyone off real quick .
so yes come on and get ready a couple of days before an event ,i run a buisness with big work loads and i still manage to turn up everytime ready to battle usually 2 robots. i personally feel slack if someone is waiting for me to battle them.
for goodness sake stop all being sellfish and admit if your bot cant be ready in time it cant be ready, forfiet and move on ,get it ready for the melee if you wish ,pack up and go home ,or pack up have a chat and help others with their robots .its a club not an ego support group ...end of my rant Wink
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Post Mon May 29, 2006 9:00 pm 
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Nick
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No probs with the rant Chris, it was well deserved. Bort & I were trying to move things along but we were just too polite and not pushy enough. We rescheduled as many matches as possible to make up time, but it wasn't enough.

Next time it really has to stick to schedule and if anyone is not ready, they auto-forfeit. If everyone knows that is how things will be run, there shouldn't be any complaints on the day.

Perhaps we should look at making dual sets of batteries mandatory? If some people have trouble pumping a charge into their packs quickly, I am happy to loan my second Triton to spped things up.
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Post Mon May 29, 2006 9:51 pm 
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Bort
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I must agree with the second se of batts things suggested by Nick . Either that or 1 set that can be ready in 1/2 hour turn around time.

In all honstey I didn't really help Nick out much till the end, when I was sick of the slack. So my appreciation goes to Nick for actually doing the draw and stuff. I'm still trying to manage the bots and trying to help out there as well. With 2 bots, and 1 not functional my time was kinda split. I didnt want to dump retread with lindsay and say 'here you wire it up'. Next time I'll help out sooner.

Yeah I'm glad you weren't there Chris. You would have stressed out something cronic. But if we all know the rules and know they will be enforced then no complaints.

On that note, all this talk about round robin format is good, but is everyone really ready for it. I believe Nick, and Chris could handle it. But other people are notoriously late and take up heaps of time.

No matter what format we decide we need to enfore time rules, and safety more stringently. I am more than happy to enfore the rules, it comes with the territory, but I need to know that is what we want as a club.

Post Mon May 29, 2006 10:48 pm 
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