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Standard Match Rules
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Daniel
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Standard Match Rules

The RFL are finally putting it all down on paper. So now things like fight lengths, unstick rules and pinning are more then just something we have heard about.

Here is the draft version as a pdf:
http://www.botleague.net/doc/rfl-match-rules-0-03.pdf


Here are a few things I have picked out that make either us different to the americans (I mostly agree with them actually, but that is my point of veiw).

Rule 2.6: Match Frequency. The RFL give a minimum of 40 minutes between fights which may be extended depending on the event. RoboWars 3 only gave us 30 minutes. (sorry for laughing when the head judge mentioned 30 minutes during the breifing at the event)

Rule 2.8.2.1: Shutdown when touching a pit. The RFL say that as soon as you hit a pit in the floor you must immediately shut your robot down. Climbing out of the a pit, even if it is only 5cm deep, no longer counts. This is the only rule I disagree with.

Rule 2.8.4: Stacking. If Sproing places you against a wall, your out. But we all knew that.

Rule 2.8.5.1: Stranding. If Sproing drives into the wall by itself and gets stuck it is aloud only 1 unstick during a match. If it does it again, it is out.

Rule 2.8.3: Pin Time . A robot that is pinning another robot must release the other robot before 15 seconds , not the 30 that I have been told about. The robot that is doing the pinning must free the other robot before the 15 seconds are up or the robot will be disqualified once 15 seconds is reached. If the robot tries to seperate but can't then they are demmed stuck and the fight will be paused and the robots seperated.

Rule 2.8.5.2: Neutral corner restart. Once robots have been seperated they must drive to neutral corners of the arena (not left 5cm apart so they can start pinning straight away again) before the fight can start again. This is to give no advantage to either robot. If Scoopy could catch the other robot in the first place it doesn't need to start on top of the other robot because it should be able to catch it again no matter how they start. This way the restart is fair for everyone.



Like I said, apart from the pit rule, I like these rules. I think that if we are going to use the RFL build rules then we should use the RFL match rules as well.

Post Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:31 pm 
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Totaly_Recycled
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mm 15 seconds isnt going to give sproing much time for a grab lift then carry and stack .. looks like I might need to make a fast crusher now but 15 seconds wont give the other bloke much time to decide to tap out if grabed by a crusher either .. the crusher driver will probaly have about 5 seconds to decide to let the other bloke tap out ,or just do a gentle squeeze and let go or just go for it and squash them . Very Happy

Post Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:14 pm 
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DumHed
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I think the grab rules are a bit of a problem.

It'd be stupid to have a rule that effectively bans the use of weapons like Sproing's, but at the same time you don't want bots just holding others in place for a whole match.

I think it needs to be at least 30 seconds, but with some interpretation depending on the individual situation.

There's also a difference between a lifter taking its time and a drill or saw bot attacking for the same amount of time.
While I lifter is not going to do any extra damage with more time, a saw or drill certainly will!
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Post Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:34 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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Well, I just had a look through the rules, and there are some things in there that I dont agree with as well.. Wink

{edit] I agreed with the Pit comment while posting, but then I noticed in the PDF copy, the term "Pit" is (now?) "Death Zone". A Pit doesnt necessarily have to be declared a death zone, so thats not a problem. If an arena builder wants a non-death zone pit fine. If they want a non-pit death zone, thats fine too.. (it might be a gap between a inner bumper and outer wall, Robots shouldnt be allowed to climb out of a zone like that, even if they can).

Stranding/Unsticks.. I dont mind the idea in principle , but as I mentioned in the other thread, it could get controversial on occasion. If the other robot is in contact with the "stranded" robot in any way does it count as enemy action or not ? Example - Scoopys saw gets stuck in the wall while someone else was pushing. Did scoopys saw cause the stick, or the opponent ?

15 second count down if you get stuck on the floor or arena, but 10 seconds to show controlled translation ? How are you supposed to tell ? 10, or 15, make up your mind guys.

The 15 second pin rule seems over-the-top to me. I like 30 seconds.. its only 16% of a match. 15 seconds to lift, carry, lower, scoop, saw and release or risk a disqualify is Too short IMO.

The Neutral corner restart if the robots get stuck together doesnt bother me, what do you guys think ?

*Note that the proposed RFL match Rules will not be adopted for RoboWars events without notice. Until we've all had a chance to discuss it and settle on whether we like them or not, the current rules remain in force for the upcoming RoboWars Brisbane event.
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Post Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:46 pm 
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Totaly_Recycled
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Im hapy with unstick re start in the corner ..i think that also while on this subject (this is only a safety concern) i feel that the drivers or a team member who knows the robot and its safe handeling should only be allowed in the arena for the seperation .

On a couple of occasions at various events I have noticed other people going in and giveing them a kick ect mabee some sort of procedure should be adapted when the clock is stoped , like haveing an official check that both bots have been shut down by the operators and then allow the operators oe team member to do the seperation and return the bots to the corner-starting place.

Post Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:17 pm 
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Valen
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15 seconds worth of "offensive" pin say
then you must begin releasing, to be completed in 10

bit complicated but its a compromise.
a "scoopy" style ram bot would make for some pretty dull matches
6 "scoops" and its all over.

15seconds is still a pretty long time, sit there and do nothing else then count out 15 seconds, then watch a RW video.

sometimes the judges have to make a call, you cant stop that, but to my thinking the arena should be considdered a "perfect device" and allowences should be made to cope with the fact that it isnt, your saw gets stuck in it? well you shouldnt be able to damage it in the first place so you get an unstick.

(if the other guy does that 5 times during a match i know which way i'd give the points)


pits are a "house rule" i thinks, so eh whatever the EO says.

neutral corner good thing

driver or "authorised personell" good thing, EO could get his arm cut off if he isnt carefull.
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Post Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:47 pm 
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Philip
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I have said before that IMO 15 seconds is enough for a hold. I don't think that a longer hold should lead to disqualification, however.
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Post Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:56 pm 
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Timothy Forde
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quote:
a "scoopy" style ram bot would make for some pretty dull matches


hmmm not if that bot is ramming both of them into the wall at large speeds lol

Any way 30 seconds for sure but maybe be released by 30 seconds rather than 30 seconds then be told to release
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Post Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:37 pm 
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Knightrous
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quote:
Any way 30 seconds for sure but maybe be released by 30 seconds rather than 30 seconds then be told to release


I think that is a really good comprimisation there, Tim.

I was thinking about all the issues discussed so far and I decided to look at clarifying a pin and a hold as two different things. PIN being the term if you wedge/push someone against the wall and hold them there so they cannot drive. They should only have 10 seconds to release the opponent. HOLD would be the term used for Sproing or Pinscher where they grab a hold of a robot, control it and release the robot before 30 seconds.

To clarify it more, to encorparate what Dumhed was saying about how Scoopy Doo could do more damage in 15 seconds sawing away then someone like Sproing in 30 seconds, here is my suggestion. If Scoopy Doo is to scoop KO up into the tray and push it againt the wall to cut it with the saw, this is classed as a PIN (Scoopy is effectively stopping KO from moving) and we give Scoopy 10 seconds to release after starting the PIN . But If Mel catches Tim off guard and scoops KO up sideways and pushes it around the arena in the tray while controlling KO and cutting at the same time, this would be called a HOLD (Tim has made a driver error, he could drive out since Scoopy isn't actually forcefully holding him in the tray). Scoopy would be effectively controlling KO around the arena while attacking and would have to release within 30 seconds.

To be controlling the opponent while attacking I see being more entertaining and should provide a better battle with that extra bit of time in a HOLD situation. It also will encourage drivers to use their skill to get that extra time to maximise their damage or tactics instead of wedge and PIN the opponent to the wall, wait 30 seconds and the do it again.... Which equals boring lame fights.

Any comments? I know this is left up to the judges to control the time lapse of PIN and HOLD , but the judges need to start getting a grip on things and doing their job Razz

EDIT: Added coloring goodness....
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Post Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:05 am 
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Nick
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Perhaps it could be simplified to:

A PIN is controlling an opponent against a third object, while a HOLD is controlling an opponent with just your bot. That would live lifters 30 seconds to prop opponents against the wall and everyone else 10 sec to pin against the wall.

Both moves score points and it shouldn't be a bigger score just because yo pinned your opponent for longer. In fact, a 10 sec release is better for scoring as you can pin your opponent more times and potentially score more points.
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Post Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:49 am 
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Daniel
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Actually I think Aaron is wrong with the Scoopy example. Every time someone has gone into Scoopy's tray sideways that have been stuck and the fight has to be paused for them to be removed. If they are holding an opponent then they have to be able to release them on command. If Scoopy can't release a sideways robot from the tray that shouldn't be holding, but pinning and only be the 10 - 15 seconds time. Scoopy is a pinning robot, not a holder. It can't hold a robot without forcing them against the wall or causing them to get stuck sideways. Pinscher, Sproing and Skeletor are the holders as they can release the opponent easier no matter of which orrientation it is when it is caught.

It also shouldn't be the judges that decided on what is pinning and holding. At RoboWars 3 the three judges were spread around the arena so if you were making them confer with each other over pinning/holding they take more the 30 seconds to come together and decide. It should come down to one person, a referee. The referee should be one person who is an experianced roboteer who isn't fighting at the time. Someone who knows the difference between doing something right or wrong, rather then just thinking about what is writtern in the rules. I really think a referee is what we have been missing.

Post Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:08 am 
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DumHed
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it's also not really fair to limit a bit like scoopy to 10 seconds in my opinion.

It usually takes longer than that to get in position and then have a few good cuts with the saw.
As much as I don't really like my robot being sawn in half, I do want to see some damage Razz
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Post Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:45 am 
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Timothy Forde
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Have to agree as much as I hate scoopy 10 seconds just is not the time it needs
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Post Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:43 am 
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Philip
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Lets try not to talk about individual robots. We should talk about principles. I do understand that it is easy to think of examples and name robots, but it is important that noone feels like they are being picked on. People are more important than robot fights or rules.
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Post Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:32 pm 
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Glen
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we should talk about individual robots lol cause its the certain rules under discussion that apply to them.

i guess theres no perfect time to pinning. its just whatever feels right like match time. but 30 seconds is a hell of a long time in only a 3 minute match. if your weapon takes 30 seconds to do its job right then build it again lol its too slow. i mean sit down and just mentally count down 30 seconds. thats a pretty long time.


quote:
Rule 2.8.5.1: Stranding. If Sproing drives into the wall by itself and gets stuck it is aloud only 1 unstick during a match. If it does it again, it is out.


whats the deal if the floor just gets peeled up from say jolt getting flipped into it and then in the next fight a wedge gets jammed under it twice? is it out or what?

interesting as well how the beetle weigh matches are 2 minutes. i always was under the impression they where 3 as well. but 2 just means more powah for the weight Very Happy
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Post Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:11 pm 
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