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Chess Ranking system
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kkeerroo
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Chess Ranking system

I have just been reading quite an interesting thread on the RFL forum about a bloke who applied a ranking system simalar to the ones used by the professional (?) Chess people. It works like this.

Each robot would start with 1200 points.
The guy sujested a weight of 27.
Delta = (loser's ranking * 27)/winners ranking
Add delta to the winners ranking.
Subtract delta from the losers ranking.

Unfortuantly 3-way fights and melee's don't really work

I have gone through and tested it out on all the 2-ways fights from the Metal Mayhem series and ended up with this:
1 - Cheeze Shredder = 1306.97366
2 - Vertical Limits = 1306.41284
3 - Marauder = 1269.55029
4 - Scarifier = 1255.65095
5 - Mite-e-er = 1254
6 - Budget Bot = 1226.3925
7 - Annihilation = 1202.33993
8 - T2M = 1202.33255
9 - Adversary = 1201.57907
10 - Haemorrhage = 1201.17579
11 - The Beast = 1199.42107
12 - Hellbringer 2/X = 1198.82861
13 - Black Velvet = 1173
14 - Chopper = 1173
15 - Ya Ya Ya Death = 1173
16 - Sharp Shooter = 1149.31253
17 - Loki = 1148.75505
18 - The Aggressor = 1146.6075
19 - Evil Spike = 1146.57969
20 - RRR's Over = 1145.38797
21 - Budget Bot v2 = 1120.68002



Now I wanted to do this for all the robots in Australia but I can't find all the results for the NSW compititions. Any help here would be great.
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Post Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:12 pm 
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Glen
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if you can hold it in for another day ill type up all the results from that sheet chris printed up for us.

spans from marayong 4 >
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Post Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:36 pm 
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chrisjon65
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I WIN Wink Very Happy
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Post Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:51 pm 
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Knightrous
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quote:

1 - Cheeze Shredder = 1306.97366
2 - Vertical Limits = 1306.41284
3 - Marauder = 1269.55029
4 - Scarifier = 1255.65095
5 - Mite-e-er = 1254
6 - Budget Bot = 1226.3925
7 - Annihilation = 1202.33993
8 - T2M = 1202.33255
9 - Adversary = 1201.57907
10 - Haemorrhage = 1201.17579



All Team Vertex robots in the top ten Shocked

I think the Chess style scoring system looks fairly good, because it doesn't matter how new the robot is, it's based upon it's battles. this would solve the big issue of entering new robots and worrying about losing all your points from a previous version as if the robot is any good, after a few good battles your rank can rise/fall to suit the battles.
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Post Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:03 pm 
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Waddy the phoenix



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you know i think i like that system NFI how you come up with the numbers but i think i like it
Laughing
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Post Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:52 pm 
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Knightrous
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quote:

Each robot would start with 1200 points.
The guy sujested a weight of 27.
Delta = (loser's ranking * 27)/winners ranking
Add delta to the winners ranking.
Subtract delta from the losers ranking.



That's the equation he used to get the numbers.
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Post Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:57 pm 
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marto
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Should we try this for our comp i think it looks pretty good beside us being down the bottom.

Damm radio interference.
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Post Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:23 pm 
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kkeerroo
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This is a post from the RFL forum I am insterested in and I wanted to look into it more when I got home, but instead of e-mailing it to myself I'll put it up here for you lot to read too.


quote:
A couple of iteams that I did not explain well:

1) The delta caculation should be done differently for the winner and loser -- for almost every case, this will always result in complementary values (+x and -x).

2) More properly, the delta calcuation is

DR1 = K * (S1 - E1) and
DR2 = K * (S2 - E2)

Where S1 is 1 if R1 wins and 0 if R1 looses and S2 is 1 if R2 wins and 0 if R2 looses

3) E (whitch is the expected score of each robot) is calculated as follows:

E1 = (1 / (1 + (10 ^ ((R2 - R1) / ER)))) and
E2 = (1 / (1 + (10 ^ ((R1 - R2) / ER))))

4) So, at the end of a match, the new scores for R1 and R2 are:

R1 = R1 + DR1
R2 = R2 + DR2

So, lets try that example again: Going into a match, Robot R1 has a rating of 1600 and Robot R2 has a rating of 1500. Lets say that Robot R2 pulls off the upset and beats R1. The points R2 gets for beating R1 would be:

DR2 = K * (S - (1 / (1 + (10 ^ ((R1-R2) / ER)))))
DR2 = 10 * (1.0 - (1 / (1 + (10 ^ ((1600-1500) / 300)))))
DR2 = 10 * (1.0 - (1 / (1 + (10 ^ (100 / 300)))))
DR2 = 10 * (1.0 - (1 / (1 + 2.1544)))
DR2 = 10 * (1.0 - (1 / 3.1544))
DR2 = 10 * (1.0 - (0.317))
DR2 = 10 * 0.683
DR2 = 6.83 or 7 rounded up

R2 = R2 + DR2
R2 = 1500 + 7 = 1507

So R2's rating would increase to 1507 for this upset.

For R1, the score would be calcualted as:

DR1 = K * (S - (1 / (1 + (10 ^ ((R2-R1) / ER)))))
DR1 = 10 * (0 - (1 / (1 + (10 ^ ((1500-1600) / 300)))))
DR1 = 10 * (0 - (1 / (1 + (10 ^ (-100 / 300)))))
DR1 = 10 * (0 - (1 / (1 + 0.4642)))
DR1 = 10 * (0 - (1 / 1.4642))
DR1 = 10 * (0 - (0.683))
DR1 = 10 * -0.683
DR1 = -6.83 or -7 rounded up

R1 = R1 + DR1
R1 = 1600 - 7 = 1593

Meanwhile, R1's rating would decrease by 7 points and he would fall back to 1593.

The E values, E1 and E2 are as illustrated, the expected outcome of a match relative to the "strength" of an opponent. So for R1, his actual score S was 0 (a loss) but the probably of him wining was 68.3% and so his ranking is adjusted for that error factor. Similarly, for R2, his actual score S was 1 (a win) but the probably of him wining was only 31.7% and so his ranking was likewise adjusted for this error factor.




There's about 150 posts simalar to this, so its an interesting subject. Sort of.
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Post Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:59 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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It is an interesting area, but the question is, is anyone interested enough to collect results from all of the events nationally, do all of the calculations and updating of a rankings table on a website on a regular ongoing basis out of their own time ?

I suspect most people would like to see their Bot's national ranking, as long as someone else did the hard work of working out the rankings.. otherwise it would probably be more of a "I won RoboWars 2003, Marayong 6 and Metal Mayhem 3" ranking where you list your wins..

Doing it on a bot-vs-bot system does have the advantage that you dont get equal credit for winning a small 4 bot event as you do battling through a field of 50 bots at a bigger event...

So, any volunteers ? Wink
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Post Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:06 pm 
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chrisjon65
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well after looking at kkeerroos system ill stick to building houses and battling bots on weekends Razz Very Happy i gotta say rankings are fun but if it involves that type of calculations im over it Wink
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Post Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:54 pm 
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kkeerroo
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quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:
It is an interesting area, but the question is, is anyone interested enough to collect results from all of the events nationally, do all of the calculations and updating of a rankings table on a website on a regular ongoing basis out of their own time ?

So, any volunteers ? Wink


Well as soon as Glen gives me the results from the Marayong fights from last year I'll have more a look at it. I don't like Mite-e-er sitting there with a boring score, but if I had Marayong 2's result (which I think I have here some where) and Robowars 1 (which I do have) Mite-e-er would have an interesting score, which would throw a spanner into the rest of the Metal Mayhem points, as well as The Aggressor and Mite-e-er at Marayong 4 (I have the results for Marayong 4, but I think I havn't got Marayong 3, which I'll need). I can't do much with the Annihilator so I'll forget that and the only other time Queenslanders went interstate was Robowars 2 (which I have results for) but those damn NSW bots were there and I can't figure out their scores as you lot don't post up the full trees any more.


Oh and those equations in the previous post of mine need a bit of fixing. If the K value is too low you arn't getting enough deveation from the average and therefore not getting an acurate result. But if the K value is too high you end up going too far and throwing out the results. I heard about a value of K that depended on the size of the field, something like sample size x sqrt(2).
Either way out of the 6 test pages I've seen the yanks try on the RFL results 5 ended up giving the same results for the top 10 robots in the 30lbers (the only group I've looked at) and the other test put Totally Manipultive at number 4 rather then last, so I'll ignore that one ( Totally Manipultive has an impressive losing streak)
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Post Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:15 pm 
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Waddy the phoenix



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hmmm just 1 thing

1: this reminds me of a leveling system in a role playing game and i think that that score may have been possible if it some how fluked a massive win off a bot that has a massive winning streak.

this system makes it interesting because you could be winning every match but then go up against a new bot or a bot that looses that much it almost has negative numbers and if you loose you would drop a decent amount of points while they get a boost up the ranking system.

another thing i thought of is that if some one was to make a spread sheet of this you could enter the variables and you get the new score combined with a database you get a nifty auto updating rankings list
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Post Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:12 pm 
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kkeerroo
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Well if you want to know what the american result look like so far check out this site
http://www.botrank.com

But since some event havn't been regested with the RFL not all the american results are up there. The bloke who set it up is currently colecting a lot of results to fix that problem. I wonder when he'll put the Battlebots compititions in there (is Biohazzard better then Megabyte?)

We can't add Australian robots to his system because we have never fought any robots from america and therefore don't have any points crossover. For example for the chess comunity, if a school had their own compitition a kid there might end up scoring higher then the world champion, but is that kid really better then the world champion?

Now I just need to convince him to lend me the program he wrote for that website. All the calculations are automatic.
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Post Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:19 pm 
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Valen
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if you can splain it to me sufficently i can hack up our own version of a website.
if we get it right you could have it run multiplle scoring systems off the same win loss table
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Post Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:27 pm 
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Waddy the phoenix



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hmmm will it include a database of bots Razz (i wonder if any one will notice i like the idea of a robot points win los statitics database)
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Post Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:18 pm 
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