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Robot rules - (pneumatics related)
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Knightrous
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Joined: 15 Jun 2004
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Location: NSW


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If he has a 1000psi burst disc, how can he put 5000psi in there? Also, C02 varies dramatically on temperature when looking at it's pressure.

Also, i've just looked at 3 different angled views of The Judge and cannot find a guage anywhere on it's pneumatics system Confused
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Post Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:00 pm 
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Eyce



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
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Location: Geelong, Victoria


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I thought the hammer ran off 2 mags on a chain gear-down.
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Post Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:30 pm 
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Knightrous
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Look at the Triangle Series p[hoto gallery and you'll see the whooping big assed tank in it.
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Post Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:39 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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yes, thats a good point, although I have no idea how to tell a burst disc's rating and whether it can be easily bypassed or not.
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Post Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:41 pm 
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Ajax
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Joined: 17 Jun 2004
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A burst disk is just a safety release valve, and some are not hard to modify to increase or disable.

there are others that are nearly imposible to modify.
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Post Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:54 pm 
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Philip
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Joined: 18 Jun 2004
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Location: Queensland near Brisbane


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That was a little cynical. I appologise. I have been reading about CO2 powered pneumatics for some two and a half years. I should be more understanding of the fact that others may not have.

I am not claiming to be an expert in CO2. I have followed the Fighting Robots Associations guidelines to the letter for this very reason. Further, I have used an expirieced and well known roboteer, who has built systems for robots in several countries over many years, to build and calibrate the complete system.

BOC send out their siphon bottles at around 850 psi (depending on temperature). It would not be possible to over pressurise your paintball bottle as your gas is coming from a bottle that is at around 850 psi.

Post Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:03 am 
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Philip
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Location: Queensland near Brisbane


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I would also like to say thankyou to those who have taken part in this thread. It would have been easy to ignore the issue and keep the rules unchanged especially for those who do not intend to have a flipper. More than cynical the above was churlish.

Post Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:27 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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Well, after all the to-ing and fro-ing, which has bought up several good points to consider along the way, I now feel more comfortable with the idea of deleting the high pressure gauge requirement, *provided a suitably rated burst disc / relief valve is fitted* . (The "as long as" condition I suspected might have gone along with someones comment about what Steve Judd said).

Having re-read the pneumatics rules with more attention (previously I just skimmed them lightly since I havent been working with pneumatics myself), I see this is a requirement anyway.. So far Jason and yourself are the only ones to utilise high pressure CO2 systems that require compliance with all these safety regulations so I am not as familair as I would like to be with such sysems

However, in the interest of covering ones posterior if nasty things do happen, it would still be good to have a clear statement from an qualified source to refer to if we are ever hauled over the coals for modifying the accepted standard safety rules . Saying "we talked about it amongst ourselves and decided it was OK" doesnt really suffice if none of us can show relevant experience or qualifications to a judge. Electrical Things I am qualified to judge, Pneumatic I am not.

Along that note, has your custom-made system been tested and certified by a qualified person ? Since it has been made in England, then I would assume it complies with the FRA rules 8.7 and 8.71 in this regard ? I dont want to have to be this picky, but I have no idea what is required metallurgy, seal, and welding wise to safely contain 800psi so I can only rely on an opinion from a person who is supposed to know their job.

I get the feeling we are going to need to find someone local who can assist us with this sort of thing fairly soon.. any suggestions on where we can find a tame friendly qualified pneumatics expert who can provide certifications and opinions on these sort of items ?
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Post Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:53 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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For anyone who thinks this rule nitpicking isnt important, heres an example of how stupid people can be when playing with High Powered Pneumatics..

http://www.plugenplay.nl/WJ/ontwerp/grav2hit.wmv

This guy is lucky he still has his head attached, although he obviously doesnt use it, so maybe he wouldnt miss it anyway..
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Post Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:33 pm 
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Eyce



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
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Location: Geelong, Victoria


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Isn't that from Robot Wars Series 7?

That's able to flip a Car Over Shocked
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Post Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:33 pm 
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Ajax
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I would recomend that if the gauge on the high side is removed, that there is a standard fitting (to be determined later) so a gauge can be fitted for EO to check the system is operating with in the specifications.

Also a dump valve (Bleed valve) on both the High and Low side of regulators. (already part of the rules)
If a first stage regulator is connected directly to the CO2 cylinder then there needs to be a clear and safe way to depressurise the reg to disconnect the cylinder. This would change if the fill fitting was part of the regulator.
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Post Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:33 pm 
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Philip
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WJ does have a reputation for being crazy. Mario, the builder and designer of the Gravity ram, has a reputation for safety.

Post Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:22 am 
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Philip
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It should be noted that flippers aren't alone in their potential to injure people. High KE weapons are very dangerous. It was good to see the respect Aaron paid to the spinner on Annihilation. Aaron waited until everyone had left the arena to activate the robot and remove the locking pin.

Post Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:41 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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Absolutely.. Nearly all the machines we play with are dangerous.

If they didnt have the ability to seriously injure a wet soft squishy human, then they certainly wouldnt be able to do much to a steel armoured box. Laughing

I think the things that make Pneumatics a bit extra dangerous is their potential for instant, no-warning violence.

A spinner may well carry much greater energy than a pneu ram does, but its obvious whether a spinner is in its "lots of energy stored here" state, and if it is accidentally activated then it generally takes a second or three before its really dangerous while it spins up. This gives you a bit of time to duck, dodge or deactivate.

A Pneumatic bot can be sitting totally quiescent, and if you accidentally short a wire while some part of your body is in the wrong place, that body part will quite likely be on the opposite side to you milliseconds later. Thats why they require a lot more respect than your average spinner. Blink wrong, and you could be instantly dead.

I couldnt believe how often the guy in that video was sitting with his head directly in the path of his flipper arm, or the ram. and while his "friend" is busy dicking about with the wires to the battery as well !! ah well, Darwin's laws of natural selection are still operative, despite our attempt to legislate against stupidity.. Laughing

I'll just take this opportunity to say that while I know we're still learning and getting better at it, I think the standards of pit and arena safety have been a little lax in places so far. I saw several occasions at Marayong where a trip-over or an accidental radio activation would have left some people in serious trouble. People in the arena who shouldnt have been and so on. Yes I know, I am not free of such behaviour either. I have occasionally done some dumb things that deserve a slap in the face myself.

I'm thinking it might be a good idea for each event to have someone (other than the EO who has too many other things on their plate) assigned as "safety officer".. preferably someone technically literate, but who isnt actually competing at that event to be given a little "black book" to roam around the event with over the weekend, and issue warnings, and note down any instances of unsafe practices they observe. At the end of the event, whichever team has the most "black marks" against them gets awarded an "impending darwin award" or something like that.

I realise the position of "safety officer" would probably be about as popular as that of a parking-inspector, but I think its about time we started slapping some wrists before they get broken..
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Post Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:59 am 
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Knightrous
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip Taylor:
It should be noted that flippers aren't alone in their potential to injure people. High KE weapons are very dangerous. It was good to see the respect Aaron paid to the spinner on Annihilation. Aaron waited until everyone had left the arena to activate the robot and remove the locking pin.


I'm glad someone has noticed that I tread very lightly around Annihilation, it's my pride and joy, but I fear it more then anything else I've played with.

<calm rant>

Safety is a prime concern. Philips pneumatic system is being built by Mario, and if you just mention that name anywhere in the europe/UK roboteering communities, you'll instantly get heaps of people assuring the quality and safety of his products. One of his larger 120mm bore custom made rams was pressure tested to 400Bar before the seals leaked venting pressure.

Mario builts to the RobotWars rules and has not had an issue with them yet, so I would say you could class him as a pretty good source for safety in Pneumatics. Maybe even get his oppinion on this matter.

</end of large calm rant>
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Post Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:12 pm 
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