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Knightrous
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quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:

Next thing to tackle is more open-source-style goverment. Online, direct voting on government issues rather than the current "representational" voting that is subject to easy corruption by the elected officials, and other methods of giving power back to the people will free the worlds people even further from the control of those at the top.

Whos going to trust a closed source e-voting machine ?


This is definitely something I'd like to see. I'd rather vote on current issues weekly via an open electronic voting system (maybe start using those "smart" drivers licenses) on topics that should be decided by the people of this country, not a red headed dictator. I think it would be nice to be able to vote on the option of sending $7M overseas to some 3rd world country or to spend it back into our own country to help our own countrymen/women.
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Post Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:00 pm 
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Valen
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The problem with that is most people are idiots.
By definition 50% of the population has an IQ < 100.

I propose we give everybody $1M
everybody will vote for that.
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Post Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:03 am 
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Knightrous
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quote:
Originally posted by Valen:
The problem with that is most people are idiots.
By definition 50% of the population has an IQ < 100.

I propose we give everybody $1M
everybody will vote for that.


And your proposal is economically impossible....

There would have to be some form or procedure put in place to avoid stupid crap like that coming to vote, but there are a lot of decisions made "FOR" our country "DEMOCRATICALLY" that the people of Australia get no choice in the mater. I currently don't vote (well I donkey vote...) because there is not one single party or representative that has my interests or well being in their scope. Instead of to vote for a "representative" for me, who won't actually represent me, but their own interests, I'd rather represent myself and vote for myself.

I'd rather vote on things like allocation of funding to sporting associations (them druggy bastard) and spend it on possibly our health system or maybe rebuilding some of our infrastructure that has been wiped out in the floods. Maybe somethings would have to be voted on with a time frame attached for them, so after a set period of time, things have to be voted upon again. Example, we vote to raise taxes by 2%, but offer to reduce 5% off the costs of essentials like electricity and fuel prices.


OT: Should we have this all washed into a thread called "An Open Source Government" Razz
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Post Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:16 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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Possibly, I CBF'ed doing it right now, in the middle of some stuff, unless an enthusiastic mod wants to do it, Ill do it an a day or so when I have some more time..

The details would have to be worked out carefully of course, and methods to precent people from wasting everyones time with requests to vote on every little issue, you could probably divide it up into local, regional , state and national areas, along with things like "is this a permanent change or does it auto-expire unless renewed every x years", and "needs a minimum of X% to vote before enacted" etc etc.

The point being, that if open source collaboration can develop hugely complex projects like operating systems, indestructible torrent networks, strong crypto money systems and so on, a piddly little vote/poll taking app with strong ID shouldnt be at all hard to do.

The tricky bit will be forcing it to be adopted by the incumbent powers-that-be who arent going to like letting go of their chokehold on the levers of power and influence-broking at all.. But, hey, if Linux can defeat the biggest meanest dirtbag companies in the world (Apple, Microsoft etc ) in a mere 20 years then I dont think a bunch of luddite politicians will present too much of on obstacle given some time..

The revolutions of tomorrow arent going to be conducted by idiots throwing rocks or blasting away at the vastly superior armanent of the established powers. they will be kicked off by those who know how to direct the force of open technology and freedom. Bitcoin is just the beginning.
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Post Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:39 pm 
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Jaemus
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Linux has defeated Microsoft and Apple?

I mean sure, Jobs is dead, well done Linux, but last time I checked Gates is still kicking Smile

Seriously tho im interested in how you define 'defeated' in this case
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Post Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:49 am 
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Knightrous
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There are more Linux devices in the world then MS and Apple. Remember Linux is installed on everything from Desktop computers to phones to TVs to set top boxes to satellites to printers to supercomputers to routers..... The Internet is supremely run and built on Linux technology...
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Post Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:45 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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^^ Wot He said.. Smile

Google, Ebay, Amazon, Twitter, Facebook, Wikipedia, Youtube - The worlds biggest servers of data - any Microsoft/Apple servers in there ? Nope. Pretty much all Linux (some BSD Unix)

Webcameras, Routers, Printers, GPS, Switches, VOIP Systems, Nas Drives, - Any Microsoft/Apple in there ? Nope.. Linux rules the embedded market.

"Mobile Computing Devices" - Phones & Tablets - 75% to Android, which is Linux + Java under the Gui, other Linux devices on the way (ubuntu + more)
http://venturebeat.com/2012/11/01/as-android-grabs-75-market-share-can-anyone-tell-me-why-this-is-not-mac-vs-pc-all-over-again/
Apple 15%, MS - 3%

Super Computers, Video Rendering Farms, Single Board Embedded Devices, Rasperry Pi's (over 1 million hobbyist boards sold in its first year) - MS/Apple on any of them ? Nope. All Linux.

Oh, MS still "dominates" the shrinking Desktop PC Market huh ?
Predictions of overall MS Market share of "computing devices" falling to 4% pretty soon. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2407410,00.asp

Android is chomping up Apple's Tablet and Phone market, both of which have been eating into its Desktop sales in a rapidly shrinking overall Desktop Market.

Got Linux Skills ? Welcome to the cream of the IT Jobs.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/249875/linux_where_the_jobs_and_bigger_salaries_are.html

Sounds like an ass-whupping to me.
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Post Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:40 pm 
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Knightrous
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Even gaming is heading towards Linux. Steam now on Linux and the Steam box is Linux based.
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Post Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:15 pm 
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Jaemus
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I'm still waiting to see how you consider that to be a defeat of MS and Apple. It's like saying that Nokia defeated Nikon and Cannon as a camera manufacturer. Sure, they made more cameras, but it's not the same thing
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Post Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:07 pm 
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Valen
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your implying that the nokia cameras are worse than the "real" cameras, and there the Analogy falls apart. Linux is more like the "RED" of the camera world. Its cameras are better, faster and way cheaper. The only reason people keep using the old cameras is because they have the lenses for them.

Windows as an operating system doesn't have any capabilities that linux lacks.
With the advent of windows 8 all microsoft has left is inertia.
since XP microsoft haven't added anything useful or major to their desktop platform, sure its polished, enhanced faster (for a change) etc but what can you do in windows 7 (or Cool that you could not do in XP?

Though with "unity" for ubuntu I'm afraid the flagship linux for the desktop has pulled its own windows 8, pointless screwing with the UI.
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Post Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:12 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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By "defeat" I mean "has beaten them to their goal".

Their stated goal was to have microsoft operating systems and application software running on practically every computing device on the planet. what else would a convicted monopolist aim for ?

Instead, thanks to their repeated behaving like prime asshats, people who used to be quite happy with their "good enough" solutions are now more and more looking for ways to escape their blatant lock-ins, deliberate incompatibility, intentional feature crippling to sell premium versions, planned obsolesence and attempted forced upgrade cycles.

Their latest trick ? Changing the licence for Office so that you arent buying the software any more.. you are buying it to use *only* on *1* computer forever. Upgrade your computer, or the old one dies ? Sorry, you need to buy another copy of Office, you are not allowed to transfer yor software from a old or dead machine to a new one.

Way to go Microsoft, I know of at least 3 companies that are now making serious efforts to move to Open/Libre Office just because of that dick move.

http://semiaccurate.com/2012/11/14/microsoft-has-failed/

Yes, I would say that they have been *defeated* - I cant see any way forward for them from here that isnt in a downwards direction.

@valen: I wouldnt call "Ubuntu" the Linux Flagship.. yes its probably used by more people than most other distro's, but most of them are n00bs because its relatively simple and Mark Shuttleworth threw millions at kickstarting a good support community around it, but to me its just a johny-come-lately derivitave of debian.. Smile

I admit I dont like it much, but I dont like anything that runs Gnome as the ui much, I prefer KDE.. Wink

Plus after being finally forced to move off Mandrake/Mandriva after repeated failures of the managment team, Ive moved over to Mageia which is managed/run by a community team the way a good free OS should be.

But, to each their own, Ubuntu has done a lot of good in giving Windows refugees a relatively easy path away from the Microsoft camp and for that Im grateful to it.
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Post Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:30 pm 
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daliad100



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Thought I'd chime in as I put Linux on my laptop last week.

Kind of regretting choosing Ubuntu though. Although it's ridiculously fast and easy to set up, I was installed and back to a full compliment of software minus solid edge (because I lost the install file) in about 2 hours, it feels like I could do better (still the best os I've used once I changed the interface)

I'd be comfortable giving my laptop to the less tech-literate in my family because I know that it's simple enough to do things on and it's nigh on impossible to do anything stupid.

Can't wait until I stick it on a machine with discrete graphics so I can actually play source engine games native

Post Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:18 pm 
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Valen
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I was being fairly narrow with my "flagship" remark
specifically for the desktop.

I'd say as a % there are far more ubuntu desktops out there than debian ;-P
(or any other distro for that matter)
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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:01 am 
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seanet1310



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RE Gov.

I am sorry, I am completely against this. As a massive follower of the political system in this country I can not see any benefits.

The group as a whole that is the population does not have the wide perspective required to managed a complex system. Humans are by their nature selfish and diverse.
Breaking it up as Brett suggested into areas may complicate the situation further and if you plan on doing this as a replacement to the three levels of government system we currently have then this brings up more issues in the territories that run on a different system to the states.

I can also see this having major supply issues in a similar way to what happened that caused out GG to step in and dismiss an elected government if people are given too much power.
If you required 50% of valid population then almost nothing would pass. If you required 50% of votes then very small active minorities can express undue power on the masses.
If you give the power to the local areas then it would have to go on population for budget. This would focus large money in some small areas to the detriment of the whole. Who in the capital city would vote to upgrade a vital road for trade or industry in the regions that brings in billions of dollars a year when they could get themselves a 10 minute quicker trip to work? It takes a single executive to see that the money can not be split for population all the time beyond local rates and that collective money must be spent in areas.

You could not give the people full power. For instance a time of war. You can not wait for an online poll to know if to go to war when a close allies or even our own land is under attack from a foreign aggressor. You need an executive to make rapid decisions. Some posts such as Aaron's indicate that he would rather represent himself and not have voted repersentaties indicating there would be no executive to make these decisions.

The tax system is complicated enough as it is. Everyone would try to get tax advantages for themself and as long as it apears there is no negative for others then they will get past even if the negatives are just hidden.

Australians are proven to be untrustworthy with debt. Despite what you think about the current handling of this (yes they spend a lot but income to the government is massively down over their period compared to Howard and this is not relevant to this debate anyway) the average Australian credit card balance is $3262.60 (News.com.au, 15 Jan 13). People until the down sides kick in will vote for lower taxes and higher spending. Again the lack of broad vision will hurt here.

The coalition at the moment claim that investors are not investing in Australia due to the turbulance from out political decision making. This will seam like it is completly stable now given what will happen if people start voting on taxes and similar things.

A comprimise that kind of works would be an online version of the US electroal system on propositions such as at the presidential election. This gives voters the chance to vote on some proposed bills.

Intelligence and sensitive information. This can not be given to the general public and must be strictly controlled. Decisions can not be made by the majority effectively without full information and it is just not possible to provide that a lot of the time. It would ensure industry did not deal with us without commercial in confidence and our potential adversaries will have a massive advantage over us.


Some people think what Julian Assange was good and people should have free access to this information. People should not have free access to information. There is no way to control it at that point. Need to know exists for a reason.


The simple fact is the people should not have the power.




Brett rases a good point about the technology. From a technical stand point it could be done although DSD Will have some serious issues with this idea I suspect and would put their foot down on an open source development.



RE Computers:
Linux may have a large market share (most hidden from the general population with exception to Android.) Windows is still the largest the common user is familiar with and windows has a strong standing in some complex embedded systems.
If Linux wishes to succeed on the main stream end user it has to do like Android does. Hide everything behind a GUI and make it super easy to do everything. Ubuntu has done some of this but I do not think it has gone far enough for the average lazy end user. Look at OSX, people like how you can hide everything and have basically one click installs.
If you accept defeat as meaning there are more linux then win/apple OS in the world then you have to accept flagship for ubuntu given last time I checked in the end user space it had the biggest market share.
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Post Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:46 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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Having had to deal with the less intellectually gifted on a regular basis, I would normally agree with what you are saying in principle.. except..

it assumes that the current selection process for our decision makers is based upon some form of merit, or judgement of their ability to do good things for the long term benefit of the community.

I would argue that our current selection process does little to encourage such traits, instead preferentially selecting for media-friendly looks, well spoken, an ability to avoid making easily-misquotable sound bites, expensive clothes, and political astuteness over any sort of financial acumen or social responsibility.

Having to convince a bunch of people who know jack about you except what they have seen on the Telly to vote for you again and again every few years ensures that they have little ability to think of any long-term benficial projects if they might cost them short term votes.

Bluntly put, most politicians are media friendly short sighted idiots, and probably average out at a lower median IQ than the much maligned "Average Aussie" would.

Not to mention the inherent inefficiencies in a system where its "workers" spend more time trying to secure and advance their position in the beauracracy than they do trying to ensure the system produces a useful amount of "work" as an output.

Indeed, given the current gov pay structures, that reward bosses based on the size of their department in terms of resources managed, rather than efficient results, it seems obvious to me that gov employees have an incentive to do things as *inefficiently* as possible to require more people to get a job done and thus pad their own paypackets.

So, with voter-friendly driven media whore leaders backed up by teams of the worst workers that can be found, I seriously doubt that even a mass-market democracy could possibly do worse than our present "leaders" manage to do.

I do agree that a simple majority rules democracy has problems, and as has often been said, the best form of gov is a benevolent dictator, problem is they dont stay that way..

But Im sure that we could hardly fail given a team of people who can perform the "herding cats" task of coordinating a bunch of fractious programmers into producing something as complex as an operating system reasonably well.

Whatever they come up with is extremely unlikely to be worse than what we presently have, which hasnt changed in operational methods in a thousand odd years.
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Post Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:02 pm 
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