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Who's left in vic?
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shreddy



Joined: 09 Jan 2009
Posts: 518
Location: Wantirna, Melbourne


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I was seriously considering that andrew but I'm a bit preoccupied with summer uni classes to prep hurricane for vert spinners and I have an exam the tue after the event Rolling Eyes

Will definitely try to get to a big event though if I can, just depends when they are really Razz
NSW's closer so naturally I'm more inclined to make those events than going to QLD, but we'll see.
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Post Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:14 pm 
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andrew



Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 3110
Location: Castle Hill, Sydney. N.S.W


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well if u ever up this way you dont have to worry about accomodation or any of that crap.

Well take care of you like we would any other interstater who makes the effort
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Post Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:27 pm 
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shreddy



Joined: 09 Jan 2009
Posts: 518
Location: Wantirna, Melbourne


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and it would be very much appreciated Smile

these are the sort of things I really like about the robowars community, you guys are just so awesome!
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Post Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:44 pm 
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Jaemus
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Joined: 01 Apr 2009
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Location: NSW


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quote:
Originally posted by andrew:
well if u ever up this way you dont have to worry about accomodation or any of that crap.

Well take care of you like we would any other interstater who makes the effort


+1, although I currently live pretty far north of sydney Smile
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Post Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:14 am 
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miles&Jules
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Joined: 19 May 2010
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Location: ipswich QLD


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Yeah same with us Qld folk..... always ready to rustle up some accommodation for you inter-staters. Smile
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Post Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:26 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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Joined: 31 May 2004
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Location: Melbourne, Australia


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The Arena still exists, it is disassembled and in storage, and I have talked to Barry (SideTrackeds Owner, Mark is the Manager) about it.

He is not in any hurry to sell it unless anyone offers him big $$ for it.

They have also rebuilt the Dogem Car arena (where Pit Lane, the area we used to use for RoboWars Pits was), which could be easily used for Robot Wars with the placement of a couple of the Arena walls for viewing through.

What is missing is someone with the Drive, Passion, Energy (and possibly the stupidity Wink ) to volunteer to have a serious go at organising some events.

And by "Serious" I would expect that they would have to do something like commit to doing a minimum of 6-10 events about 1 every 3-6 months for a year or three *and* do all the beating the bushes and encouraging the builders to participate that I used to do.

As Im sure you've all heard, I have officially retired.. If 6+ years of busting ass to put on events wasnt enough to get the ball rolling enough for it to keep going without me, then I seriously doubt that the current format is viable.

We held exhibitions, radio interviews, got on front covers of Magazines, newspapers, TV guest spots, Sidetracked advertised RoboWars events on TV as part of a TV ad campaign they ran on Channel 10, Documentaries were made and probably more than I can remember. The moment I said I'd had enough, and could someone else please take over (even with my help), everyone ran away and had excuses why they couldnt do it.

So, instead of trying to turn back the clock to what was, you guys should try thinking forwards and coming up with ideas on what could be changed or improved to make it viable in future and worth some budding EO going through the same struggle to give it another try. The old way obviously didnt work, so dont try and go back there.

Ive kicked out a heap of ideas over the years for people to try, but it seems noone is prepared to try except Steve..

Personally I think the biggest thing that is needed is to get a hobby manufacturer on board. Tamiya or Hobby King or someone like that.

Make a standardised modular chassis that a 10yo can assemble from off-the-shelf parts without having to be a machinist, welder, Cad expert, Metallurgist, Electronic and Radio Engineer all in one. a type of Lego/Meccano - Robot Wars edition type thing. Get it stocked by Hobby stores convincing them they will sell plenty of spare parts to repair battle damage.

Build a Geodesic Dome style Arena that can be dropped over any piece of ashphalt/carpark/RC Car Track and convince the local RC club to run it. Promote it at Go Kart Racing Clubs where there are plenty of Rich Dads with competitive Sons who know one end of a spanner from another.

Kick the competitors butts for no-shows or piss-poor efforts. If you can spend thousands on a Robot, you can afford hundreds for an entry fee. Refund a percentage of the fee for every fight they succesfully compete and gain a reasoanble score in.. Give them a reason to bust ass to keep getting their machine out there and not throw in the towel as soon as it gets hard

Stuff like that. I could rave on more if you like, but Im sure youre all sick of me doing so.

Just dont try and turn the clock back, trust me, it wont work.. Myself, Gary and quite a few others who know who they are gave it our top effort for *years* and it still rolled to a halt the moment we stopped pushing.. So come up with some new ideas, or you'll just be beating a dead horse.

'Jus Sayin' y'know. Wink
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Post Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:17 pm 
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shreddy



Joined: 09 Jan 2009
Posts: 518
Location: Wantirna, Melbourne


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The main (possibly only) problem is the lack of builders in vic.
No point changing everything and making an entirely different setup with different machines in the hope to get more people in because at the end of the day, it's not the kind of robot combat that we all really want.
In NSW and QLD there are established arenas AND local competitors that regularly get events going with great success, but I guess you see a successful event differently to myself.

Robowars may never pick up again in VIC on as large a scale as it did before, but as long as there are good events to go to, that are regularly keeping the 'sport' going, THAT is what drives motivation and determination to make it grow.

Starting from scratch, on a whole new design, is terribly uneconomical.
If more enthusiasm is derived, and enough people in vic are interested again (and possibly sidetracked has the arena and sees the support that will be behind an event) then it's possible that Sidetracked could decide that it would be worth their time, and money, to hold events again.
Taking a pot-shot with a whole range of newcomers with a whole new game sounds like a recipe for disaster. Especially at hundreds of $$ for event entries.

Why start from a standstill when it can be started with momentum already there.


While it's the topic for discussion I would like to just clarify something, on good terms;
Your years of hard-work at promoting and hosting robowars has not gone unnoticed, and I do appreciate it immensely myself for had you not kept it going, I may not have found out about it.
However I do find a lot of your remarks about the way others handled your 'retirement' rather disappointing.
At this time I was not legally allowed to take responsibility for an event (and had only competed with my own robot in one event) so I was grossly under-experienced in how to run an event; I'm sure I don't need to remind EO's out there what it takes.
Despite this I still pushed to have an event and thankfully Rob put his hand up to sign on the dotted line and take the lead as no-one else was willing.
I do agree you did provide some assistance, which I am thankful for, but I believe you will agree that to a new builder, a little more than sending me a small list of vic builders numbers/emails and calling mark about the arena would have been required to keep such large events continuing.

So before you rant off about how 'no-one could be bothered to get off their lazy ass to go and do something', think about how you left the community.
You didn't pass the baton to the next person willing to be the EO with a little help (note:Rob, myself), you just dropped the ball.
If you really cared about where robowars was going to go in the future, don't you think you would have cared how you left it?

I hope you can respect my point of view on this issue, noting that I have not once mentioned any of the above before out of respect.

Good day
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Nick
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Joined: 16 Jun 2004
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Location: Sydney, NSW


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IMHO, keeping things small and low budget makes them sustainable, that seems to be working well for NSW and QLD events. I seriously doubt any R/C manufacturers would ever sponsor an event; they would never see any of their money back. On the other hand, teaming up with a non-profit group has worked well in other states, particularly QLD.

Another key thing for QLD and NSW is the smaller weight classes - cheap, easy and events are very easy to organise.

Post Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:51 pm 
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dyrodium
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 6476
Location: Sydney


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quote:
Originally posted by shreddy:

Why start from a standstill when it can be started with momentum already there.



Agreed. Interstate travel isn't that big of a deal for a really enjoyable weekend with friends + robots. Travelling to main events helps us all keep the motivation up and, in the case of the last few public events - get a rush from the watching crowd. Smile

I'd be more than happy to put up builders who come down to NSW events and I know most are the same. Razz Organising the public events sucks but hey there's always at lease one of us mad enough to give it a go (mostly - steve XD).

Also +1 on the smaller classes, with portable insect arenas in NSW and QLD, holding events for those in public spaces is far easier. Smile
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:36 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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Hey Shreddy,

Dont worry, Im not going to bite your head off for having a different opinion than I do, Smile As long as discussion is kept polite and rational, then everyone is entitled to have and say their opinion.

There *wasnt* a lack of builders for a long time. We had Myself, Rick, Mel, Gary (and his sons), George, Russel, Sean, Those Uni student guys (I forget their names), yourself, Big and Little Tim, Jason, David, Daniel and who knows else I might have missed. So there was plenty of people around willing to make machines at the time.. just none of them wanted to do any EO work.

About the only one who sort-of tried was Danny, and while I acknowledge his vocal enthusiasm, he just didnt seem to be very good at organising things, and a couple of events of his that I attended and tried to support I left feeling that it was only through luck that a disaster hadnt happened and I didnt feel safe myself, much less comfortable watching a bunch of 10yo's sticking their heads, hands, cameras and other bits around the edges of the open on 3 sides arena, with neighbours 10 feet away on the other side of a fence with no polycarb protecting them and many serious safety and other issues I dont want to go into now.

And I didnt say "Change Everything" or start with a whole new bunch of newcomers either. I said "think about what could be changed or improved to make it viable in future", rather than just trying to repeat what has already been done.

Because I can tell you that without a whole lot of time, money and free effort regularly invested from a lot of people behind the scenes that you probably wouldnt have seen, the old RoboWars style events were *not* viable.

I would estimate that each event I put on cost me personally in excess of $1500 cash outlayed on things like flyer printing and promotions, trophies, arena prep and repair, and other "miscellaneous " expenses that quickly add up (I kept a budget for a couple of events just to figure what they were costing, and no that doesnt include any extravagant unecessary expenses)..

It also doesnt include all the free time put in by the many volunteers that helped, Free Accomodation for some of the interstate travellers at my house, the free support of the SideTracked venue and Staff (they got their compensation from the increased attendance using their facilities which barely made the effort they expended worthwhile).

While on that note, try finding qualified people to be judges, announcers, tech inspectors, wranglers (gettting the competitors to the arena on time etc), schedulers, and all of the support staff who would much rather be working on their machines or spectating than working. If we managed to keep the same judges for an entire day of an event, we were doing well..

I also didnt suggest "Sponsorship" from a hobby company, although I did briefly investigate that as an option at one time. All a "Sponsoring" company is interested in is, How big is my banner/advert going to be, and how many eyes of what demographic are going to be looking at it. Tell them a few hundred of 15-25yo male tech geeks, and they will mostly laugh and show you the door. Your average Robot Builder or Spectator is hardly rolling in cash and a market worth them chasing to advertise at.

What I *did* suggest is presenting them (a Hobby manufacturer) with a battle-tested, modular design than can be broken down into parts that use as much as possible of their existing product range (motors, speed controls, batteries, radios, wheels etc), that they could combine with a new but standardised chassis that used existing armour plating, and other plane/car/heli parts to make servo powered lifters, brushless powered spinners, and so on, and they could sell as a meccano-style kit from the basic platform up to the big kahuna with carbon fibre panels, and other bolt on bling options like anodised aluminium parts and so on.

Something new for the Hobby stores to sell, that uses a lot of existing parts with just a few new components to tie them all together and is different to all the "yet another helicopter, RC monster truck / whatever" and would keep customers coming back for replacement parts post battle damage. Its not sponsorship.. it would be a whole new product line/market for them.

As far as "dropped the ball" goes, that might be how it looked to you, but realise you did come in pretty late so might not have seen the overall picture.. Anyone who had known me for a while would probably agree that I had been making rumbles of having had enough of being an EO for at least a year or two prior to the last event I did, and had made no secret of the desire to get soemone else to be EO for a while so I return to what I originally wanted to do when getting into Robot Wars, which was building and competing and doing Electronic and Tech design work rather than trying to manage others wich was like trying to herd cats and not work that I enjoyed much at all.

There is a difference between "dropping the ball" without warning, and "putting it down" after an extended period of having told many that I intended to do so. Just because you werent one of the ones who were told well in advance doesnt mean that others werent. I dont blame you for not picking it up personally at all, because as you pointed out, you were underage at the time, and probably wouldnt have had the experience necessary to run an event, and were a new builder and would have been better off focussing on building rather than EO'ing.

I wont mention any names, but those who I have grumbled about having excuses knowing that I intended to step back from being the front man for quite a while will realise who they are if they think about their conversations with me over the years. I think there were quite a few who had the potential to take a more active role but just didnt want to do so, because having been around for a while, they knew how much work it was to do so.

Additionally, although you probably didnt know it, and only a few did, and I didnt want to have to mention it, just prior to the last RoboWars I started suffering some pretty serious unexpected medical issues (which turned out to be a nasty bacterial infection of the stomach) that sent my blood chemistry wacky, and resulted in me dealing with daily (practically *every* day) killer headaches that required me to lie in dark rooms moaning in pain for hours, an frequent pronounced inability to concentrate where I would regularly "lose the plot" in conversation (ask Gary and a few of the other Roboteers who have known me closely for a long time), dizziness spells, regular intense crushing chest pains that felt like heart attacks (but thankfully werent) and even spending a couple of unexpected days in hospital all of which seriously impacted my ability to even be able get my day job work done for a good 9-12 months afterwards before it started to clear up.

Naturally this did nothing for my enthusiasm or ability to organise another event and by the time september/october rolled around and I was still slowly recovering, that combined with the fact the Arena had been sitting assembled and waiting but pretty much unused for nearly a year apart from a few (poorly supported by the builders) attempts by Rob as you mentioned, and I decided it was time I turned my attention elsewhere.

As far as helping other budding EO's go, the reason all I practically did was pass along contact details for builders is because that is all I was *asked* to do. I repeatedly said I would do anything that I could to assist anyone who wanted to have a go at it, but that *they* would have to be the prime mover and shaker. I could have given advice, talked to Sidetracked to let them know I think person <x> was worth trusting (Since I have a long relationship with and they trust me a lot), design flyers, and any number of other low-stress jobs, but with the understanding that I *wasnt* going to be the one with my neck on the block to make it all come off.

It may sound cliched and trite I realise, but until *you* have been the one who everyone is counting on to make it all happen, you really have no idea of the psychic pressure it places upon you.. One of the famous US presidents of the past apparently had a sign on his desk that said "The Buck Stops Here..." - And until you have had that sign on *your* desk (so to speak), and its *you* that has to deal with the mess when when the shit hits the fan and subsequently haul ass to make sure "The show *must* go on" you have no idea of the pressure an EO is placed under sometimes. If you think Im just bignoting myself, ask Steve, or the Kero Bros, or anyone who has actually done it and been responsible how much fun it isnt.

But, until someone else grows a pair and is prepared to stretch their neck out over the block, RoboWars Victoria is likely to remain a backyard sport..

Which isnt necessarily a bad thing if that what you guys enjoy most and want to do..

Plenty of long time hobbies have never enjoyed even the time in the media limelight that Robot Wars did.. When has anyone ever seen a major TV showed based around RC Plane or Helicopter flying, or RC Car racing or Rock Crawling ? yet they go on quite happily year after year..

I think part of some Roboteers problem is they remember the "Glory Days" and want to return to them again, but without having to put in the work that many people did to help make them happen at the time.

So, theres a few extra data points for you to consider before calling judgement on my manner of stepping down..

Hopefully you know a bit more about why I retired the way I did now, and realise that I am not advocating wiping the slate clean, just that if you want to try and scale the heights of publicity again, you're probably going to have to find a few new routes and break some new ground..

"Emund Hillary Climbs Everest.. Again ! " just isnt likely to make quite as a big a splash the second time around.. Wink
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Last edited by Spockie-Tech on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:37 am 
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shreddy



Joined: 09 Jan 2009
Posts: 518
Location: Wantirna, Melbourne


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Brett,
I appreciate your understanding of the situation and hope you get well as it sounds like something one of my family members has been going through for a long time, so I can understand the lack of willing commitment.

In regards to not asking for much help when trying to help organize the last meet, I thought it was obvious that I didn't even know what I needed to know therefore one cannot ask for advice on what he does not know he needs to know.

The only problem with robowars in Victoria is numbers. Always has been, always will be.
At the last event hosted I attempted contact with every single member in Victoria who didn't know of the event yet the turnout was dismal.
Trying to host large events with such a little crowd is therefore not feasible so I plan to keep up support for the interstate events in hope that it brings back old vic builders, or indeed interests new ones as I will have current competing robots in Victoria instead of only old ones that haven't fought in years.

I have recently spoken to Josh Tepper (the guy with the team of uni students who built the chigger-like bot) and he was enthusiastic about smaller beetles/ants due to ease of construction and lower cost.
I will now see what can be done to find a place to fight them should it be decided to go ahead and build these smaller combat robots as that will be easier for new builders due to the reduced costs and such.

For now though, featherweight competitions will be for NSW and QLD until enough interest/support can be attained for a VIC feather event, provided an arena is available.

If you would like to build a bot and join in to help the cause then you are most welcome, however I must ask that if you would still like to voice ideas, to please make them realistic. I would much rather be discussing what we can use for a beetle arena than how to market a modular range of combat robots to an international hobby store chain's PR department. If you feel like inventing then that idea is all yours, I have a feeling no-one else is going to go through all that trouble Laughing
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:32 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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Maybe that Hobby Store Idea is or isnt realistic, it was just one of many I offered for consideration. I dont think it would be hard to achieve, if you wanted it to happen. Personally I think it has potential, but we wont know unless soemone tries, and its not going to be me. If you have your own better ideas, feel free, the field is wide open.. Smile

If your friend is suffering similair things to I described, look up "Helicobacter Pylori" (The Infection) on Wikipedia and the use of UMF-Certified (IF theyre not certified they're 99% likely to be crap) Manuka Honeys as a effective pleasant treatment that worked for me (takes a month or so to get it under control).

HB has had a long an controversial history, with a West Australian Doc discovering it in the 1980's and spent years getting poo-poohed by the establish medical world until in desperation he broke all the rules and deliberately infected himself, showed all the symtptoms docs were ascribing to other causes, and then cured himself before they would even listen to him. Its a sad story that so many of our medial "Professionals" have become dogma-sprouting closed minded wankers who refuse to consider any new data not handed to them by their corporate masters.. but hey, medicine is a business (and a bloody big one) I suppose, so its not really surprising.

There *are* effective, proven cures to this stupid bug that affects over 50% of people in some lesser or greater way during their lives, but that most doctors either dont know anything about it, or simply do wehat doctors usually do, which is stuff youu so full of antibiotics (The Triple Dose Therapy is the officially approved method for treating H.Pylori infections.. (if your Doc even knows about it) Wonderful except that the treatment makes you feel like youve been run over by a steamroller for a month and makes your intestines go into chaos) that you wonder if the cure is worse than thee cause. But do your research on Active Manuka Honey (The real UMF Certified stuff, not the copy cats), and you be wanting to take it down to your docs and hit him in the face with a bottle of it while yelling "Why didint you *tell* me about this stuff ?!?"

Anyway, back to bots...

Dismal Turnouts is nothing unusual.. Most of the Roboteers arent very good at getting things done on time (who*hasnt* been still working their robot the day before the comp ?) - which is why I suggested high entry fees.. Throw the responsibility for showing back on the competitor.. The EO already has enough. At the moment, in my opinion, its too easy for a competitor to say ("oops, blew up my only ESC last night, sorry, wont be able to make it, can I have my $20 back please ?").

As mentioned I suggested setting the entrance fee for an event at $200 *minimum*, maybe $500 for a big event, and the competitor gets x% back for each fight their robot competes in and gains a respectable score in (not just moves off the starting line).. Cant afford to do that ? Fine, you arent ready for the big league events yet. If you dont have enough spare parts to keep you running through at least 1 minor catastrophe, you arent ready to play with the big boys. Stay in the lower weight classes..

Anyway, Im ranting again.. do it your way..

I *would* like to build another Competiting Robot one day (my car will hopefully be finished about mid-this year - maybe allow to year-end to play safe), and I did mention this 6 months or so ago in another thread, but noone liked my ideas there either, so I just waved and went quiet again.

The present format of a simple rapid-release energy-storage system (flywheels, penumatics, flippers etc) against equally simple hi speed bricks or wedges on wheels is no longer of any interest or challenge to me Im afraid. I want to make something different..

As I explained in that thread, something without wheels, either driving or flywheels), something that will bring a bit of creativity back into the sport intead of it coming down to simply who can do the best weld of the hardest steel to strongest chassis mounting the biggest toothed flywheel and not break before the opponent does.. Its evolved just a bit too far in the bare essentials only direction for my liking now. The Bots are all simple variations on a very few themes..

I walk to see something a walkers-*only* class wielding electrically powered hammers (no gas either) or pry-bars, or legged versions of "Complete Control" or stuff that that requires imagination, not just a camera and chequebook..

but whatever, Ive already said my piece, you do it your way. If it looks fun, I *might* join in a few months.. or write a clear solid set of rules defining how you think it should be, and Ill commit to building somthing up front if I like them.

Good Luck.
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:00 pm 
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shreddy



Joined: 09 Jan 2009
Posts: 518
Location: Wantirna, Melbourne


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The current plan is to keep things simple and small (I'm thinking beetleweights) for now and see if more interest develops. Having functional feathers standing by will definitely help encouragement, could even have them in the arena; put hurricanes shell upside down and If you get flicked into the shell then you lose Razz
We'll see, it takes time. I've been talking to friends I know that have had interest in the past and the main concern is not what to build, but where to get parts/costs. Hence why I am planning to not build a spinner myself 'yet' to avoid discouraging others.

For arena/location ideas, I'm kinda on my own here.
Off the top of my head it could be held in a garage perhaps (will try and pitch that one to the parents unless anyone knows of good alternative places haha), for the concrete floor. Polycarb for walls with a metal runner offset from the floor which houses joining blocks and something simple for the roof. Even that rough idea could contain spinners to some degree. and fold up out of the way relatively easy.

As far as the way bots are developing Brett, I personally really like it. Not only are the spinners/launchers/etc getting more powerful, but all the bots keep being developed to able to take the higher loads. It's and engineering toybox of innovation. I can personally vouch for that too as the stuff I learnt back in yr11 (in my own time) while designing Hurricane is still ahead of my education, and I'm now in my 3rd year of studying engineering at Uni.

And about the medical problem, this person has regular major migraines (kind of like you described, except on a regular basis for decades) and since the only medication that worked for them was taken off the market (all that business/legality crap as mentioned), they have gone through a long stint of being taken off the medication and having to cope on a various different medications. On top of that it seems that cold air during winter gives them severe 'asthma' and as such they cannot be outside for long. This started only the start of last year and they have been to many doctors/medical specialists and absolutely no-one has a single clue what it is. That in itself is both physically and mentally draining.


Didn't mean to sideline the thread there but continue on with the bot discussion!... if there is anyone there
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:49 pm 
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Nick
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Joined: 16 Jun 2004
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Definitely go for the smaller classes to reboot the sport in VIC! Its a bit ominous that the only other VIC competitor to reply was Brett - when an arena is ready to go, you will need to do some some serious phoning and emailing to get competitors out of hibernation. If you get a reasonable ground-swell of bots ready, its likely that some inter-staters will want to come too.

Post Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:00 pm 
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dyrodium
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Just wanted to chuck in a few words about use of crowdfunding for robot events:

I organised Robot Serial Killers 1 and 2 using crowdfunding to collect entries. At the stage these campaigns were set up, the event was 'locked in' however I have been giving serious consideration to using it to plan out potential events and get builders and interested parties to commit. If you reach your goal for running the event - it goes ahead . If not - no one loses out.

It's not all good news though - last event there was about 5 hackerspace and other people who pre-paid to compete and then were no-shows. But hey, their cash went into our coffers for future events and the crowd turnout was fantastic. btw, I alone did not organise those events >_> I just got the deal and everyone in NSW really pulled together!


In my opinion, the small robots are really set to see a big increase in interest as this maker revolution starts getting people off the computer and into physical objects... It's actually pretty sad people have forgotten how to make things using basic tools, but with the buzz around 3D printing we might start to see a resurgence to some degree.

Saw some discussion on the hobbystores - interesting to note that they've basically died out too... Almost everyone buys online now and with the advent of hobbyking, Australian stores just stuck to their snobby ways and suffered a deserved demise IMHO (anyone remember the locks getting sabotaged when hobbyking opened their Sydney storefront?). Also cool that hobbyking now has a robotics and arduino section with more things being added all the time (omniwheels even).

With the current amount of Australian builders - it'd be silly to invest in another feather arena... But for public events everyone needs to pull together. Regardless of all the help though, if you EO you can't really compete... I can't see that ever changing.
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:41 pm 
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