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Bitcoin - The Future of Digital Currency
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Spockie-Tech
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quote:
Originally posted by seanet1310:

I can not be bothered responding to Brett in a new post after his reply.
I will just say. Yes that was hyperinflation, I know you have never hit the wrong key before Brett but not everyone is as perfect as you.



Grumpy Grumpy,

It wasnt "a wrong key". it was a disjointed mess of unintelligible pseudo-sentences. I read your reply twice and still couldnt figure out what you were trying to say in most of it.

Sorry if I dont like having to try and make sense out of someones thoughts that were written while they are engaged in 4 other conversations simulataneously, if I wanted to do that, I would hang out on IRC. If pointing out that your post was almost unreadable is going to get your knickers in a twist,


quote:

May I ask how you declare this on tax? as a non cash asset?, a cash asset? do not declare at all?


At this time its status is unclear. Most people are treating them as a commodity item, taxes are only due if and when they are converted back into fiat $. You can trade football cards, or any other collectable items all day without having to declare income.. only when you "cash out" do you need to declare income. No doubt there will be lots of legal wrangling over this in the future.


quote:
I did not notice any sites in quick research pointing out how it links
in with each countries tax and legal system.


That is an internal country issue. Where does the TCP/IP protocol have provision for the government to collect tax on network packets ? Bitcoin could not be easily linked to thousands of different systems around the world.. it is up to the worlds systems to decide what they consider bitcoin to be and treat it accordingly.

It gets into some very interesting philosophical areas, since Bitcoins are merely a cryptologically secure number.. if people are willing to assign value to such numbers, then what ? Does W.O.W. gold need to be taxed ? Skype Credits ? Server hosting gigabytes ?

I am not a "destroy all taxes" type. I understand that some infrastructure is necessary, and there has to be a method of paying for it. I do think the present tax systems are ridiculously over complicated and unfair. When Warren Buffet pays less tax than his secretary, there is something serious wrong.

Bitcoin is agnostic w.r.t. taxes.. what it does do is make it hard for people to tax you based purely on the amount of coins you receive. Taxes instead will have to be based on property ownership, expenditures, or some other fair system. Thedre has been a lot of discussion on this subject, and again, I think the end-result will be positive


quote:

I must look at your forum signature while reading the reply you gave 'Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people'
You like to discuss events, Average. You also like to discuss people by making quite a few references to me not directly related to the posts in your last 2 replies.
I would have to say by your own sig you are mostly a small mind.


Oh, back to the insults are we ?

Bitcoin is an idea.. a potentially world-changing one that I like.. yes I can be small-minded on occasion just like everyone else, but I try not to spend any significant amount of my time worrying about what other people think.

I made some disparaging responses to your opinions because they were shallow and insulting. "People are paying for nothing with a value attached by a shady liberal market" and "Worse comes to worse, brett can go hire a hitman or other black market items".. when you make comments like that, you have to expect some backlash.

If you have a problem with being criticised for being difficult to understand, shallow and insulting, then perhaps you would find 4chan more to your taste.
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Post Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:18 pm 
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Knightrous
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Interesting little video from C3 Conference.
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Post Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:57 am 
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Knightrous
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I wondered how long it would be before someone tried this.



http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/08/bitcoin-company-says-debit-cards-coming-in-two-months/

You lose the anonymity of Bitcoin, but it certainly makes it more practical if you can swipe a card down the shop to pay for items with bitcoins. Not so good if you only have bitcoins for purchasing from Silk Road though Laughing
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Post Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:34 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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Mmm, back up around $10 a coin and climbing, still no cracks in the security of *the system* (depsite individual website hacks by dumb operators), and people developing more and more apps based on it all the time, *knowing* that it cant be shut down.

*Only* a 100 million market so far, a mere 2 years after launch..

Of course there will be more investor rushes, bubbles, goverment sulks, bad PR, Competing Companies and all sorts of shit come raining down on it much nore yet..

But just like Linux has survived the worst the corporate world can throw at it, I think Bitcoin still stands a damn good chance of being the first "Government free" currency.

Letst see whats happening in another couple of years Smile
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Post Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:28 pm 
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marto
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Back up to around $20ish on and off.

Silkroad is prolly causing most of this.

Steve
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Post Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:56 pm 
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Knightrous
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And the online Casino's that are now using them.
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Post Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:07 pm 
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Knightrous
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Bitcoin AKA the "Shareless Share Markets", are now back up to $31.50 / BTC. Looks like those 10BTC I picked up last year for $4/BTC are looking like shares in Apple Razz
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Post Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:49 am 
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Jaemus
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It's interesting that each update here reads as 'back up to $X'

What was it previously at that was so high?
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Post Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:00 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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It hit $32 a year or so back after the intial burst of publicity, then when Mt.Gox got hacked and a bunch of idiots didnt realise the difference between an exchange service getting hacked, vs the actualy currency/protocol getting hacked, the speculators got cold feet and bailed out..and so it collapsed back down to ~$2 briefly, before recovering pretty quickly to about $5, and his been gradually climbing ever since.

Now, since it has survived that first collapse and is recovering strongly, a lot of idiot financial anaylsts who didnt understand anything about what it is and how it works and hence bagged the idea initially are now taking notice and going "holy crap, this thing might actually work !"

People are building all sorts of real world useful platforms based on it, WordPress And KimDotCom's new "Mega" service are accepting it as payment, People are selling Custom ASIC chips to build mining rigs for it, There are Bitcoin ATMS, The Internet Archive is offering to (optionally) pay its employees in it, and you can now buy physical gold and silver with your bitcoins and vice versa. http://www.goldsilverbitcoin.com/ .

So, who's wishing they had listened when I told you all about it 2 years ago when it was about $3/coin now ? Its gone up in value 10x in the last 2 years, and I reckon its going to keep going a long way yet.. Smile

Can I say "I told you so" now ? Wink
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Post Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:49 pm 
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Knightrous
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quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:

So, who's wishing they had listened when I told you all about it 2 years ago when it was about $3/coin now ? Its gone up in value 10x in the last 2 years, and I reckon its going to keep going a long way yet.. Smile

Can I say "I told you so" now ? Wink


Now your just flaunting it as a share market instead of a viable currency system Razz
If your into the share market, why didn't you buy shares in Apple 10 years ago? Profit is even bigger Wink

I think you will only be allowed to post up a big "I TOLD YOU SO" post when Bitcoin becomes a globally accepted currency, an exchanges don't rape you for transactions into real cash (Which are higher then banks at the moment!).
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Post Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:12 pm 
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Spockie-Tech
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Actually, Im seriously not advocating for Bitcoins to be a way of turning a small amount of fiat cash into a larger amount of fiat cash further down the track..

If I was doing that, I would be just thinking of the idea purely as a way of making more fiat cash, which Im not.

I believe it is the first form of "useful" money that actually stands a chance of holding its value for more than a generation or two (unlike practically every form of Fiat money) and that has the potential to revolutionise world trade by enabling cash to be moved around near-instantly without middlemen and regulators telling you what you can do with your resources.

It also seems likely to me to force a long overdue overhaul of the Tax system.. Once governments can no longer track income levels, they will be forced to rejig the tax system into a more fair arrangement where coporations and individuals cannot make billions with no tax just by clever accounting, moving profits offshore to some subsidiary in the cayman islands, or whatever.

It will probably be based on property ownership or something similair since as someone said "You cant hide real estate in cyberspace", and its seems pretty clear to me that if a company has a 400 square mile corporate headquarters and 500 retail outlets, they are obviously raking in a lot more $ than joe and his fish and chip shop are. Maybe it will be something else, Im no expert there, but the present system is obviously broken and needs fixing

So to me, the current $ per bitcoin price is purely an indication of the confidence levels that people have that these intangible collections of cryptographic numbers are useful things and a sign of the growing adoption of the currency, which Im glad to see.

I think it is (yet another) example of how clever open-source software can change the world for the better.

Next thing to tackle is more open-source-style goverment. Online, direct voting on government issues rather than the current "representational" voting that is subject to easy corruption by the elected officials, and other methods of giving power back to the people will free the worlds people even further from the control of those at the top.

Whos going to trust a closed source e-voting machine ?
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Post Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:59 pm 
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marto
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Any way back to bitcoins....
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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:03 am 
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Spockie-Tech
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OK, Ill move the computer/open source rants to another thread.

Hows this then ?



Looking a bit vertical again on the charts at the end there.. what do you think ? Speculative bubble likely to drop back, or is it going to just keep rising this time ?

Sooner or later its probably going to go vertical and keep going for quite a long time as confidence in the system builds and people look for somewhere to store assetts that doesnt depreciate, But the question will be whether the bitcoin equivalent of a "bank run" is possible.

Given that the protocol is designed to be able to replace the encryption side of things, even *if* someonebody was to find a way around the encryption (and ignoring the backup safeguards like distributed blockchains and having to somehow own >80% of the networks hash power (which already has more power than the top 20 known super computers in the world put together), I still dont see the whole system failing..

So as long as most of any million/billionaires who decide to invest a significant fraction of their welath into BTC have a wise geek to advise them, it should be fairly unlikely to have any mass panic runs with people trying to cash out simulataneously.

There might be a wobble or two yet if any of the early adopters who still have significant BTC holdings decide to retire to costa rica or something and cash out.. but it wont take long for their "wealth" to be absorbed by the rest of the buy-ins, and *if* that happens, (which I sort of hope it does so I can buy some more cheap coins Smile ) then after that, I think it will be all but indestructible confidence wise and well on the way to mass adoption.

An interesting question is going to be how to price things once people start using it for online shopping. I suspect its going to have to initially have an automatic tie in to the current exchange rate for whatever the local currency is..

And finally, further down the road, do you think Governments will ever accept payment in BTC ? Or are they more likely to insist on *their* monopoly money being the only "true" coin of the realm and leaving it up to you to buy their coloured papers at market rates to pay whatever you need to to them ?

Interesting times ahead.. Smile
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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:17 pm 
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Philip
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quote:
And finally, further down the road, do you think Governments will ever accept payment in BTC ?
With all of the other non money trade schemes, the ATO calculates tax based on the current value of the non money medium and charges the tax in Australian dollars. http://www.ato.gov.au/nonprofit/PrintFriendly.aspx?ms=nonprofit&doc=/content/35349.htm
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Post Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:00 pm 
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seanet1310



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quote:
Originally posted by Knightrous:
quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:

So, who's wishing they had listened when I told you all about it 2 years ago when it was about $3/coin now ? Its gone up in value 10x in the last 2 years, and I reckon its going to keep going a long way yet.. Smile

Can I say "I told you so" now ? Wink


Now your just flaunting it as a share market instead of a viable currency system Razz
If your into the share market, why didn't you buy shares in Apple 10 years ago? Profit is even bigger Wink



To be fair almost all fans are doing the same and for good reason. It is not a stand alone currency. It is still very much dependent on the dreaded fiat. What you do with this is the same as what you could do with shares in years gone by (trading has lots of taxes now to give shares to others).
You use to be able to trade x shares for y items (such as your gold, pizza etc)

quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:
It hit $32 a year or so back after the intial burst of publicity, then when Mt.Gox got hacked and a bunch of idiots didnt realise the difference between an exchange service getting hacked, vs the actualy currency/protocol getting hacked, the speculators got cold feet and bailed out..and so it collapsed back down to ~$2 briefly, before recovering pretty quickly to about $5, and his been gradually climbing ever since.



Sure some may have been spooked from the weakness of the exchange service compared to weakness in the protocol but there is a simple fact. As much as people like to pretend, this is reliant on exchange services completely for survival (you can't even get into it practically without them as these days you can not just go and mine your own to get started). A weakness in the exchange serivce is a weakness in the proposed system and can be just as damaging short/medium term as a weakness in the protocol.'

I would like to see the ATO take this seriously and catch the tax evaders using this.

quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:

Whos going to trust a closed source e-voting machine ?


Well evidence shows, most people. In the US Mitt's son had a major share in one of the electronic voting systems used over there. It was reported he brought his share with money given to him by his dad. They were still used in the election he was in with almost no fuss.
Government agencies responsible for data security and integrity I doubt would be too happy with a fully open source system if history is anything to go by. Just like they shut down the Huawei closed system and access to be used in the NBN. (see my post in the other thread)


quote:
Originally posted by Spockie-Tech:
\And finally, further down the road, do you think Governments will ever accept payment in BTC ? Or are they more likely to insist on *their* monopoly money being the only "true" coin of the realm and leaving it up to you to buy their coloured papers at market rates to pay whatever you need to to them ?




Sp,e countries accept multiul currencies for payment even for taxes and similar. This is often if theirs is small Examples include Nauru and Niue. Still I suspect most will only take their currency. It gives them greater control and in this day and age and short to mid term anyway can not build a road with virtual bitcoins. It needs to be converted to a fiat currency for use just like any shares and they do not accept any other form of shares as payment.
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Post Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:13 pm 
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