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Towards Autonomous Combat
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Red.13



Joined: 17 Jun 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by marto:
Ersh.


OK, not sure what that means, but anyway... Smile

I've spent the last hour watching the ant weight battles of 2012. Very entertaining. Smile But here are some technical difficulties that ARs would have:

1. The arena floor being white is good. (Well, apart from all the scratches Wink) But the pit cover being yellow is not easy for sensors to distinguish.
2. And ideally, it would be nice if there was some fore-warning to the pit for the sensors to pick up, like a border around it.
3. And knowing where the pit is at any given time would be nice to know.
4. And lastly, knowing when the pit is open or closed. (Although it seems like it opens after 2:30 minutes - give or take some man-handling by the official.)

Unless we wait for several more years for some overly complex drone control system or such, I want to ask if the people that make the rules that pertain to the design of the arena, whether some changes could be made to help any autonomous robots be competitive?

Again, this is just shooting form the hip, and happy to have my ideas discussed / debated / modified / enhanced by anyone because I don't have anything at stake here, yet.

1. The colour of the arena floor to remain a high gloss white.
2. Only before a combat that has an auto, any marks left be previous combats to be cleaned or rubbed off, if possible. (But no new paint applied as this would cause delays for drying.)
3. The pit cover be painted a mid-tone neutral grey.
4. The pit to be bordered by a 1 inch wide matt black line.
5. The corner in which the pit is situated to have some sort of IR emitting device, maybe pulsing or cycling at some pre-set frequency, embedded into the wall at some determined height. This "pit marker" would need to be able to be "seen" at any location within the arena from ground level.

OK, those my initial thoughts... What do you all think?

Mark

Post Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:13 pm 
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Knightrous
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quote:
Originally posted by Red.13:
quote:
Originally posted by marto:
Ersh.


OK, not sure what that means, but anyway... Smile


It's a sigh of frustration from someone who has put a lot of thought into doing this, has working concepts, and is actually trying to help you but keeps getting fobbed off.

Questions 1-5: Stop trying to change the environment to suit you. The rest of us don't expect the arena to be setup to favour our specific designs. Wedges don't get laser level floors and Spinners don't get soft walls to deflect off when they miss their opponent. I certainly can't join the Sumo robot competitions and complain that I need a weapon to make my robot competitive.

quote:
Originally posted by Red.13:

Besides, the idea of having a central computer doing the tracking for you... Well, where is the skill expertise in doing your own code to outwit the other?

Nope, if you go autonomous, the easiest and only way to go is all on-board. How else will the machines ever rise up against us, if all we have to do is cut the cord to the video camera stationed above us? :Wink:


Oh how will the machines ever rise up against us, if all we have to do is cut the cord to the IR beacon... Wink

Why don't you build a 150g sumo robot, and try it out in the NSW antweight arena (which has no pit) as is, see how it goes, where it works and where it fails. You can then expand your ideas from there and work on improving it. Otherwise, take Marto's advice, use some simple camera tracking (Essentially the rest of us are using this system, except we use eyes and brains as our automation system Wink ) which will work without changing the whole enviroment / sport and you can still play programmer Smile
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Post Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:46 am 
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Red.13



Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 47


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quote:
Originally posted by Knightrous:
quote:
Originally posted by Red.13:
quote:
Originally posted by marto:
Ersh.


OK, not sure what that means, but anyway... Smile


It's a sigh of frustration from someone who has put a lot of thought into doing this, has working concepts, and is actually trying to help you but keeps getting fobbed off.


And people have been wondering why there have never been autos involved with any combats? It's because the suggested path is simply too complex - that's why it has never been, and never will if you think this is the only route.

quote:
Originally posted by Knightrous:

Questions 1-5: Stop trying to change the environment to suit you. The rest of us don't expect the arena to be setup to favour our specific designs.


I didn't think my requests were outlandish. Jeez man, all I'm talking about is some different coloured paint and maybe a flashing LED. Bit too much of an "edge", you think? LOL Man, is someone scared that giving the autos some "eyes" is going to get their asses kicked? LOL

quote:
Originally posted by Knightrous:
the NSW antweight arena (which has no pit)


PERFECT! The pit was the only reason for the "massive" change of paint schemes. No pit, means no need to worry.

quote:
Originally posted by Knightrous:
Otherwise, take Marto's advice, use some simple camera tracking (Essentially the rest of us are using this system, except we use eyes and brains as our automation system Wink ) which will work without changing the whole enviroment / sport and you can still play programmer Smile


Ah, and that is where your complete lack of understanding of programming is beaming through. Yes, you would think it is "simple" to, you know, just get a computer program to "look" at a camera feed and, you know, just work it out, maaaan.

If it was "easy" or "simple", our good mate Marto would have worked it out by now. ...Ahem... :\

Sorry, but he's going about it the wrong way, IMHO. And I bet I can make an auto up and running that beats his auto, if it ever shows up, by a factor of years.

Will you be at the Sydney games? You never know... With no pit to worry about, you might just see an auto compete, yet. Smile

Post Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:05 am 
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marto
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quote:
If it was "easy" or "simple", our good mate Marto would have worked it out by now. ...Ahem... :\

Sorry, but he's going about it the wrong way, IMHO. And I bet I can make an auto up and running that beats his auto, if it ever shows up, by a factor of years.


Lol.
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Post Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:21 am 
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dyrodium
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A bit of relevant history - 2004 was the first ever win of an autonomous combat robot vs a human controlled robot : http://www.spambutcher.com/autob.wmv

Autonomous B had all sensors on board. Personally, judging from the video it was the other driver that caused the win... not the on board 'smarts'.

Have some source code. http://www.spambutcher.com/autobsource.html

EDIT: And then please start to build something... Laughing
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Post Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:26 am 
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marto
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1. The colour of the arena floor to remain a high gloss white.
- Maybe but I think black or something dark would be a better idea as it will get marked very easily.

2. Only before a combat that has an auto, any marks left be previous combats to be cleaned or rubbed off, if possible. (But no new paint applied as this would cause delays for drying.)
- Doubtful because there really isn't the time and the floor really gets scratched up pretty well which doesn't rub off.

3. The pit cover be painted a mid-tone neutral grey.
- Probably

4. The pit to be bordered by a 1 inch wide matt black line.
- Probably

5. The corner in which the pit is situated to have some sort of IR emitting device, maybe pulsing or cycling at some pre-set frequency, embedded into the wall at some determined height. This "pit marker" would need to be able to be "seen" at any location within the arena from ground level.
- Could be added yourself, I don't know if I would want to put it inside but if you could make a small device you could just stick it to the polycarb as long as it doesn't obstruct the view.
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Post Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:31 am 
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Red.13



Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 47


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quote:
Originally posted by dyrodium:
A bit of relevant history - 2004 was the first ever win of an autonomous combat robot vs a human controlled robot : http://www.spambutcher.com/autob.wmv

Autonomous B had all sensors on board. Personally, judging from the video it was the other driver that caused the win... not the on board 'smarts'.

Have some source code. http://www.spambutcher.com/autobsource.html

EDIT: And then please start to build something... Laughing


Awesome, thanks for the links.

And don't worry... I am! Smile

Actually hoping to have something by the Sydney games. My Sumo is basically done, so can move onto the next project. Smile

Post Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:44 pm 
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Red.13



Joined: 17 Jun 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by marto:
1. The colour of the arena floor to remain a high gloss white.
- Maybe but I think black or something dark would be a better idea as it will get marked very easily.

2. Only before a combat that has an auto, any marks left be previous combats to be cleaned or rubbed off, if possible. (But no new paint applied as this would cause delays for drying.)
- Doubtful because there really isn't the time and the floor really gets scratched up pretty well which doesn't rub off.

3. The pit cover be painted a mid-tone neutral grey.
- Probably

4. The pit to be bordered by a 1 inch wide matt black line.
- Probably

5. The corner in which the pit is situated to have some sort of IR emitting device, maybe pulsing or cycling at some pre-set frequency, embedded into the wall at some determined height. This "pit marker" would need to be able to be "seen" at any location within the arena from ground level.
- Could be added yourself, I don't know if I would want to put it inside but if you could make a small device you could just stick it to the polycarb as long as it doesn't obstruct the view.


1. Agreed!
2. OK, hence probably better to go dark.
3. Cool.
4. If we go dark floor, then it needs to be high gloss white border.
5. Good thinking!

OK, so how does this work in terms of getting voted into the rules or guidelines... It's not like the changes I am proposing affect the RC robots in any way, right?

Post Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Knightrous
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Black floor in the arena is crap for filming robots on.
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Post Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:27 pm 
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marto
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Could always go grey or something like we had at the start and a darker black for around the edge and white or yellow for pit.

However I really don't think this is a concern atm as it will be a factor of years before we see anything going up here then maybe I will think about changing the QLD arena.

Steve
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Post Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:02 pm 
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Red.13



Joined: 17 Jun 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by marto:
Could always go grey or something like we had at the start and a darker black for around the edge and white or yellow for pit.


However I really don't think this is a concern atm as it will be a factor of years before we see anything going up heree[/quote]

LOL! Oh touche! Smile
Well you just never know... Wink

Mark

Post Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:22 pm 
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Knightrous
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Less talk, more action! When can we expect to see the robot running around? Very Happy
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Post Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Red.13



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quote:
Originally posted by Knightrous:
Less talk, more action! When can we expect to see the robot running around? Very Happy


Well my Sumo is coming along fine... Working on it every day, and making it in a way that the software will be usable for either a Sumo or Combat platform.

The blog on progress is here:

http://red13robots.wordpress.com/

The "GameBoy" controls means I can set different behaviours on the field, based on the type of combat robot I am up against.

Getting there... This stuff takes time. Smile

Post Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:12 pm 
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Red.13



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THIS is IT!!

Steve, this is it mate... Just had to wait a bit longer for the on-bord computational power to get to a certain level!

Our autonomous robots can now have eyes!!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/254449872/pixy-cmucam5-a-fast-easy-to-use-vision-sensor

Post Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:58 am 
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seanet1310



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nice, backed for one.
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Post Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:06 am 
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