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Towards Autonomous Combat
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Jaemus
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Joined: 01 Apr 2009
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Location: NSW


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freaky stuff, looking good Smile
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<Patrician|Away> what does your robot do, sam
<bovril> it collects data about the surrounding environment, then discards it and drives into walls

Post Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:56 pm 
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Red.13



Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 47


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Firstly, thanks to Marto for directing me to this thread. As it is 6 pages long, it will take me a while to get through it all, so please bear with me while I go through it... Great thread... And glad the discussion is being had. Smile

But, within the first page, I can see a tendency towards complexity, and that is simply not required with a well-designed autonomous robot. (AR for short.)

The hardest part about making an AR is knowing where the enemy is. Emulating "sight" as is perceived by a human is damn difficult if not impossible for something that is to be untethered and self-processing.

So for an AR to ever be able to competitively go up against an RC robot it must be able to "see" the competitor quickly, and preferably identify which is the "front" of the enemy, particularly if they have a drum, saw or other debilitating device on a particular surface. (I will ignore spinners at this stage since I find them uninspiring, boring and frankly unsportsman-like.) Knowing where the enemy is, which way they are moving, and which end is their "front" is 90% of the battle.

To this end, the best way that I have had experience with (to date) is with Infrared emitters, typically cycling some frequency. These are easy to identify on the move.

My initial idea (before reading the other 5 pages Smile) would be that RC competitors would need to be fitted with an IR emitter on them. Not going to suggest how this is done at this point, other than to say it needs to be able to be "seen" by the AR, pretty much at all times. So maybe a small black dome on top, with 4 IR LEds flashing away. Or the other thought (from the hip) is that the RC needs to have some highly reflective stickers attached to it, so the the AR shines out IR light and can pick up the reflection.

Just my initial thoughts and as I read through the thread, will happily add more if feedback is constructive.

I would hope that one day, we could have combats that have a mix of both AR & RC and the spectators would not know the difference. But to get there, we have to understand the limitations of on-board processing and to be "spartsman-like" to the AR, we might need to assist in small ways to allow them to "see" their competitor.

Mark

Post Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:38 pm 
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Red.13



Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 47


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quote:
Originally posted by marto:


I failed hard at the video but making good progress.

Steve


Wow! That is impressive! Love how the two shapes are being tracked so quickly! And can they tell X,Y & Z or just X,Y?

Is that open source code? What do you search for?

Impressive!

Mark

Post Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:52 pm 
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marto
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Location: Brisbane, QLD


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Its 6 DOF so X,Y,Z and angles.

AR is probably not a good shortening to use in this context as the tags are know as AR tags. Or augmented reality. The ARtoolkit which is the tool used here is opensource as is the ROS middleware which I am using.

This is pretty simple to use and this demo was something I whipped up in one night.

Steve
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Post Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:46 pm 
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Philip
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Joined: 18 Jun 2004
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By the way, Marto is a genius.
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Post Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:39 pm 
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Red.13



Joined: 17 Jun 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by marto:
Its 6 DOF so X,Y,Z and angles.

AR is probably not a good shortening to use in this context as the tags are know as AR tags. Or augmented reality.


OK, well feel free to suggest another tag for Autonomous Robot. Smile

And tell me what gives... You obviously know your stuff... You have obviously dabbled in the Dark Arts of code... So what's with no AR from you yet? Smile

And what did you think of my idea in terms of RC robots being identified for the ARs to "see" them?

Mark

Post Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:38 pm 
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Jaemus
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Joined: 01 Apr 2009
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Location: NSW


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quote:
Originally posted by Red.13:
quote:
Originally posted by marto:
Its 6 DOF so X,Y,Z and angles.

AR is probably not a good shortening to use in this context as the tags are know as AR tags. Or augmented reality.


OK, well feel free to suggest another tag for Autonomous Robot. Smile




Autobots? Cool
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<Patrician|Away> what does your robot do, sam
<bovril> it collects data about the surrounding environment, then discards it and drives into walls

Post Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:06 pm 
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RogueTwoRobots



Joined: 12 Jan 2008
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Location: Irvine, Scotland


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quote:
Originally posted by Jaemus:
Autobots? Cool

A Prime suggestion Smile

I'm not that into autonomous robot side of things, though I have no problems with them. But I would be against putting things on my robot so that an Autobot can 'see' and attack me. I'm in there to win and I don't feel compelled to assist my opponent in trying to defeat me. That's part of the challenge of making one.

Also, spinners are unsportsman-like? In a sport where the aim is to knock fifty shades of sh!t out of your opponent? Yeah, totally unsportsman-like Laughing
Each to their own though Smile
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Post Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:10 am 
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Red.13



Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 47


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quote:
Originally posted by RogueTwoRobots:
quote:
Originally posted by Jaemus:
Autobots? Cool

A Prime suggestion Smile


3 letters max... Or I will just stick to AR. Smile

quote:
Originally posted by RogueTwoRobots:

I'm not that into autonomous robot side of things, though I have no problems with them. But I would be against putting things on my robot so that an Autobot can 'see' and attack me. I'm in there to win and I don't feel compelled to assist my opponent in trying to defeat me. That's part of the challenge of making one.


I don't get the difference: When you are up against an RC controlled by a human, do you ask them to be blindfolded? (Well, maybe you do, but I doubt many would agree - except the spinners. Wink)

Right now, "seeing" the opponent is the hardest part for an AR to get over. If this group, or community as a whole, want AR to be competitive, then you will need to let them "see" you. At least in the short term. Later, when processors and sensors get better and faster, then this requirement would not be needed. And until AR's start beating you, do you have anything to worry about? Smile

Mark

Post Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:50 am 
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Knightrous
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Joined: 15 Jun 2004
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quote:
Originally posted by Red.13:
3 letters max... Or I will just stick to AR. Smile


Lets just call them DUM (Dependant Upon Markers) Razz
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Post Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:11 am 
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Red.13



Joined: 17 Jun 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by Knightrous:
quote:
Originally posted by Red.13:
3 letters max... Or I will just stick to AR. Smile


Lets just call them DUM (Dependant Upon Markers) Razz


LOL! Yes, very funny.

Gonna be funnier when the playing field is leveled and a AR kicks an RC's ass. Smile

Post Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:00 pm 
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marto
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Location: Brisbane, QLD


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So why have I not bothered?

Really it doesn't interest me that much. Feel free to finish it off.

The AR tags are really just an easy way of getting a good estimate of position. You could always do just some basic background subtraction and blob tracking, assuming the camera is parallel to ground plane to work out where your opponent is.

I think that doing it offboard is a much more feasible than doing any form of control onboard and by offloading all of the processing you make it much easier to build a reliable platform. Yes it is more complex but anything onboard is really useless without a PC or expensive sensors. It also means that if you develop such a system release its specs and software and make it easily to replicate you can just install that in your arena and then everyone can use it.

I am more interested in finishing something like this off to get automated docking and charging working and also a VR environment with a delayed video feed so that people can try driving my kit robots remotely before they buy them. This would pretty much include all the components necessary.

As for building an autonomous robot myself. I probably could but I struggle enough to find the time to do everything else I want to do. Maybe one day I will but yeh that day isn't going to come anytime soon. Unless someone pays me for a month or so full time to do it.


quote:
Gonna be funnier when the playing field is leveled and a AR kicks an RC's ass.

Lol this implies that you are actually going to build something. May I suggest you start with an RC box first, so you can try and get past the wheel falling off stage. Just because its RC doesn't mean its easy to do.

Steve
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Steven Martin
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Last edited by marto on Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

Post Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:57 pm 
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Philip
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Joined: 18 Jun 2004
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Location: Queensland near Brisbane


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I will put an attachment on my ant. You will need to make it fast to attach and remove. Good luck to you.

Edit: It will have to not impede the function of the robot.
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So even the rain that falls isn't actually going to fill our dams and our river systems

Post Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:57 pm 
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Red.13



Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 47


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quote:
Originally posted by marto:
So why have I not bothered?

...Yes it is more complex...

Really it doesn't interest me that much. Feel free to finish it off.


It is because it is so complex that your interest has waned. And you will notice that with your system (as far as I have seen so far) you need to have some pretty specific markings on your enemies, that some are already objecting to and in some instances, due to the build of the robot, might not be possible, like on a spinner.

quote:
Originally posted by marto:

but anything onboard is really useless without a PC or expensive sensors.


Not at all! A good IR-based distance sensor is only $15. An ultrasonic one costs $4. IR Lasers are a couple of dollars and IR LEDs a couple of cents. Or maybe you need to bathe the whole arena in IR light to reflect off the tape better. (Again, just thinking aloud.)

quote:
Originally posted by marto:
It also means that if you develop such a system release its specs and software and make it easily to replicate you can just install that in your arena and then everyone can use it.


That can still be done... Just like the ArduFlyer system does for copters.

quote:
Originally posted by marto:
I am more interested in finishing something like this off to get automated docking and charging working


Well it so happens that is something that I will be working on as well, and I will be happy to share my results and methods. But it wont have any external systems to help. It will be solely onboard and I am sure it will be possible.

Can you expand on how you want the robot to behave? As in, could the "start position" be anywhere in the ring? In any orientation? And is the end position in a particular corner? In a particular orientation? Is the charging done by contacting something on the wall, or is it done by induction off the floor?

Can the combat ring have some specific markings on it? Like say the floor is all black, but has a white line on the outside of it? (See where I am going? Why look for a complex answer when a simple one is in your face. Smile)

quote:
Originally posted by marto:

Lol this implies that you are actually going to build something. May I suggest you start with an RC box first, so you can try and get past the wheel falling off stage. Just because its RC doesn't mean its easy to do.


Oh, I never said doing an RC is easy to do. But that would most certainly be the way to do it. Putting in the automation is "simply" replacing the human "vision" of seeing the enemy, and then the micro-computer directs the movement of the motors in exactly the same way as you use your sticks. No difference.

But like you, my time is limited, and doing BOTH the building of the robot AND developing a system of "sight" for the robots is taxing. So, why not step back to the old "building blocks" option...

As in... Does anyone have an old RC attack robot they are no longer using they wish to sell? Smile

Post Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:35 pm 
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Red.13



Joined: 17 Jun 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
I will put an attachment on my ant. You will need to make it fast to attach and remove. Good luck to you.

Edit: It will have to not impede the function of the robot.


Thank you, Stig! A positive step forward!

Of course it will not impede your robot in any way!!

The two things that are off the top of my head are:

1. A little dome, say the size of half a golf ball, that is securely attaches to the robot. (Maybe strong rare earth magnets, but maybe that might affect your electrics. If so, then double sided tape might be the go... But removal might mean a little cleaning.) This little dome to contain a small battery and several IR LEDs that flash at a certain rate that is agreed by all. The weight of it not to be counted against your total.

2. Maybe just some super-reflective stickers. Maybe some spots for the back. Lines for sides and triangle for the nasty front bit. Smile

Thoughts from anyone on these ideas?

Mark

Post Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:42 pm 
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