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marto
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Location: Brisbane, QLD


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Atom motherboard = $110
2gb Ram = $30
PSU = $60

WIFI = $20
GPS = $20
Bluetooth = $2
Webcam = $20.
3 Axis Accelerometer (Wii nunchuck) = $20
3 Axis Gyro (Other wiimote expansion thing) = $30

So bit more expensive but processing power and flexibility is much increased. Comes at the cost of size and power requirements. (not really useful for robots smaller than 300x300 due to mobo size) Quick shop bot search but couldn't find any android phones for much less than $400.

Most of the above parts + motors, controllers, etc are lying around my house waiting to be put together just have to find the time.

Sumo is a bit boring, Techfest competition from last year was much better. Though we all failed pretty bad. www.techfest.org may still have the competition details or I prolly have the comp rules lying around somewhere.

Steve
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Post Fri May 07, 2010 2:30 pm 
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seanet1310



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
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Location: Adelaide


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Could be ok.
I do not like how it would limit it to two phone types but guess there is no other option. I personally only go Eseries phones atm.

I am guessing for the money u where talking it would be an ebay second hand phone?


for a lot of things a basic robot pack is a good idea. It opens things up to the IT side of the would who would have no idea what a capacitor does but can program.
Would it be limited to just the pack or could a hardware person use there own setup?
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Post Fri May 07, 2010 2:32 pm 
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Nick
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Joined: 16 Jun 2004
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Location: Sydney, NSW


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Many UAV builders in the US use an RC car s the 'standard' platform. its very easy to buy and there are many options at different price points. An RTR car has all the power electronics on it and you just need to add the navigation hardware and have it send servo control pulses to the RC electronics.

Another reason for going with a CPU board over a phone is that the phone is limited to whatever sensors are built into it - what if you want a sonar range finder, a tilt compensated compass or bump switches?

The costs could be further reduced with something like a Beagle board or one of the better ARM9 development boards - they are all relatively powerful, small and low power, which further reduces the cost of the platform they control (IE a 12th scale car VS a 10th scale car).

BTW: there are some good robot articles in this month's Byte magazine.

Post Fri May 07, 2010 5:24 pm 
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Garrows



Joined: 16 Apr 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Crestmead, Brisbane


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Techfest competition does sound very interesting. Ill be sure to look into competing next year.

What competition did you compete in?

The sub $200 price I said was a second hand HTC Magic from Ebay.

I only said the 2 phone types because I know they both support python scripts and cellbots.com have tried both in an phone-ardunio setup. Im sure there are other phones to try out but these are the two I would recommend.

I see no reason at all not to include an atom system. In fact I would encourage it. I am concerned that people would have trouble emulating the same setup as I would imagine that installing an OS, installing software and setting up the hardware would be pretty difficult for beginners. Out of interest, what OS would you prefer to install?

I like the idea of using an RC car as a standard platform. Perhaps we could find one that satisfies the Techfest rules and is easy to mount a phone/atom system onto.

Post Mon May 10, 2010 10:48 am 
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seanet1310



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
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Location: Adelaide


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The techfest i entered and the only one that ran in Aus was the INEXUS ANTS. From memory it was only uni students. Due to the time constraints most the ausi teams failed quite badly at it.

Is python realy the language you want to be using on a mobile phone based platform (it may be the only one.) never tried it myself but it is not exactly the cleanest language in the world for efficiency although i guess the average android phone is quite a powerful processor.
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Post Mon May 10, 2010 11:00 am 
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marto
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Yeh I guess if you are using python on an android phone the API's should be similar. I have no experieince with android phones so just an assumption.

I generally run ubuntu, but if you are after more performance there are some much lighter debian based distros out there which are probably better suited.

On top of this I would encourage you to install ROS (Robot OS) which is maintianed by willow garage. CSIROs DDX (Dynamic Data eXchange) software also has lots of nice features for real time robotics.

In either case you are still going to need some extra hardware to provide low level control.

The Techfest Comp was the Antz one. http://www.techfest.org/competitions/ibots/antz/
Was pretty good, but due mostly to time constraints the sucess rate at the Australian one in WA was pretty low. No idea how they went overseas.

Beat me to it sean.
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Post Mon May 10, 2010 11:05 am 
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Garrows



Joined: 16 Apr 2010
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Location: Crestmead, Brisbane


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Python isnt the only option. We are using the Android Scripting Environment which is very powerful and easy to use. The Nokia has a similar python script interpreter as well. The ASE supports python, BeanShell, JRuby, Lua, Perl, Rhino and Tcl. You can also use java with the SDK or C++ in the Native Devleopment Kit which is the fastest option.

Its a shame that the ANT comp is only Uni students. That doesnt mean that Im not interested in competing with you guys.

I wasnt all that fussed about ROS when I initially looked at it. But Ill have another look since its going open source soon.

I forgot to mention in my last post that as far as low level control is concerned, we have 2 way communication between phone and an arduino board. The arduino handles reading the sensors and driving the wheels. The phone handles remote controls and video streaming. We currently have 2 communication methods which is wired serial on the android phones and bluetooth serial nokia and android.

Post Mon May 10, 2010 11:37 am 
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marto
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There should be another techfest one running again this year but it will also probably be only open to uni students. However if we ran a local comp with similar rules there is no reason you would have to be a student.

Yeh I don't quite get ROS but in the robotics research community basically it is what you use. I have only had a limited play with it but few people in my lab said it only takes a few days to learn. ROS is probably not really that necessary for the simple stuff we are looking at but has some useful tools in there.

They almost got android ported to the Iphone so when that gets to a bit more complete level will install it and see if I can get bluetooth link working.

A few ideas which I had for robot competitions was a rubble exploration robot. Make a pile of scrap place robot on top and see which one can autonomously navigate deepest into it.

Or a race with RC car robots. I don't really like line following stuff that is pretty lame these days. (Though might be a good place to start) I would be more interested in getting them to race around some form of "Track" but the real problem is the navigation.
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Post Mon May 10, 2010 12:02 pm 
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Garrows



Joined: 16 Apr 2010
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Location: Crestmead, Brisbane


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Well keep me informed about any practice runs that you do for techfest. Would love to compete locally.

That iPhone/android port does look very promising. I would imagine that one of the first things they would have got working is the serial debugging as that is far easier to do than getting the screen working. You also have the option of DTMF if you cant get bluetooth or serial working. They included some DTMF libraries in the scripting environment.

I dont mind your rubble exploration competition although it will be a bit hard to spectate Razz

The autonomous race is an interesting one. If we keep it small scale we could start off with a track that has walls so we can use range sensors. A line might be nice as an option too. This probably sounds like the best option for local competitions.

Post Mon May 10, 2010 1:39 pm 
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marto
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So my initial thoughts on RC car race was basically have a walled track so you can use range sensors to drive around it.

Initially you can just do that reactively, then move on to possibly doing SLAM and improving you lap times each time you go around.

Then as you get faster you can start to look at vehicle dynamics, modeling wheel slip, doing traction control ect....

There is a few issues with this though, the main sensor which I think would be used is the sharp IR sensors but this becomes more difficult as you get outside of a very structured environment. So if we end up on off-road style tracks whoever has $5k to go by a scanning laser will be at a very high advantage.

Another question is what do you standardize and how do you keep it changing so that someone new can actually have a chance at being competitive. This is an issue with a lot of the international sumo's and micromouse comps. They are so ridiculous that you need to spend a lot of time and money to even make it worthwhile competing. If you can't run upside down in some sumo comps you might as well not even enter.

You need to keep it interesting for regulars and you don't necessarily expect newcomers to win but you need to at least make it so they can be competitive. Of course if this isn't an issue if you are just running it one off but I would like to see such a thing as maybe every 6 months or 12 months competition.

Steve
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Post Mon May 10, 2010 2:33 pm 
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seanet1310



Joined: 08 Nov 2006
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RE rc car one.
At first maybe have a structured wall and also a line to follow. Just make the line take the slowest path or similar to attract people to alternatives .
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Post Mon May 10, 2010 5:37 pm 
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Glen
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autonomous rc car race does sound appealing Cool wouldnt mind getting one of those thunder tiger rc bikes and having a go at using one heh
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Post Mon May 10, 2010 5:53 pm 
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Garrows



Joined: 16 Apr 2010
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Location: Crestmead, Brisbane


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I agree Marto. Most people wouldnt be able to afford to be competitive with most non standardized competitions as people seem to pour money into it.

As far a I know, the standard platform league of Robosoccer kept things interesting/challenging by taking away aids every year or two. When they started they had wall up on the edge of the field and coloured visual aids everywhere. Then they took away the walls, then some visual aids, etc. Perhaps we could a similar thing for the 'standard racing league'. Review the track and the robot every 12-24 months.

Post Mon May 10, 2010 6:07 pm 
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Nick
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The problem with 'upping the ante' every year is that the newbie entry requirements are higher each time. You want to keep things interesting but also the same degree of challenge for new entrants. Perhaps a score weighting scheme, where experienced competitors get more & more handicaps?

Post Mon May 10, 2010 6:36 pm 
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seanet1310



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a lot of the soccer events change platforms every few years making upfront costs very high for anyone without sponsorship if people wanted to keep the option of international comp open.

The issue with handicaps is getting the balance right but may be doable
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Post Mon May 10, 2010 6:51 pm 
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