Yes KISS; turn it into an armored pushy bot comp and put a pit in to make it easier on the judges.

After all if you are most aggressive and have more control you can obviously pit your opponent.

Sorry; doesn’t grab me.
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Satisfaction is proportional to effort and results.

Pushy bots , spinners , twacks etc - Weight is our currency . How you choose to spend your weight is your choice ... Build a bot with a big weapon (any weapon) and you have to comprmise . If you choose to make a barely driveable robot that is your choice .

A spinner that can only move slowly - is really relying on the other robot to attack him - after all - No driver would simply sit still and wait for a slow moving spinner to crawl over and kill him would they . Reboot is a spinner and he doesnt move slow ....

Quote : "Yes KISS; turn it into an armored pushy bot comp and put a pit in to make it easier on the judges."

No one said - make it a pushy bot comp , I said lets make it simple and fair for all. If we dont like wedges , pushies , twacks , spinners etc - then we should ban them or stop complaining. Lets really make it "rock paper sissors" and make it easy to judge reliably ... The crowd loves a good , fast and aggessive fight - if there's debris and carnage then thats even more fun

And yes - lets make it easy to judge and simple to understand .....
If you have a good bot - you will still have no problems winning .

enjoy
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Some people pass cars - some people get passed by cars

quote:

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A spinner that can only move slowly - is really relying on the other robot to attack him - after all - No driver would simply sit still and wait for a slow moving spinner to crawl over and kill him would they

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90% of the time Jolt gets any hits on the opponent is when the opponent runs into Jolt... So in theory, if anyone just stayed away from Jolt in the arena, you'd never land a hit (Well maybe on the wall) and you'd never win a battle... But that's hell boring... But if you were chasing the opponent around the arena with aggression like Reboot or Orbit (Plan B was pretty aggressive for a spinner), it would be exciting to watch...

I believe Ricks point is, big ass spinners like Jolt, don't do much in the arena except spin a big chuck of expensive metal, and rely entirely on the opponent to make the moves... Not as exciting as watching something like Orbit Vs Scoopy Doo where Orbit was laying the smack down while being super aggressive.

I see merit in Rick's idea, the judging is still simple, and it would put an end to these boring battles where one robot does all the attacking and the other wins because it sat there and spun a block of steel and managed to put a few holes in the armor.

It doesn't disadvantage spinners either, because if your spinner is good enough, and you break your opponent to a point where they can no longer drive or move in a controlled fashion, you'll effectively removed their control.

Alternate Idea....

No time limit, TKO to win
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https://www.halfdonethings.com/

quote:

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No time limit, TKO to win Cool

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Seriously; do you think you can move the goal posts that much without effecting game balance?

Imagine you came across a comp with these rules and you wonted to compete to win.

I would be thinking along the lines of Invertible Hardox box containing Dewalts Colson’s Sidewinder and M1’s and a gyro.

All I need to do is take a bit of weight out of Weasel and were set to rumble.


Control

Each robot is awarded a point in the Control category based on its demonstration of control of itself, its opponent, and the match. Length of time during which control is demonstrated, and the degree to which control is demonstrated, shall both be taken into account in the final determination of which robot showed superior control and is to be awarded the control point.

The degrees of possible control examples are...

Helpless. The robot is unable to demonstrate control, is barely mobile, or moves randomly or intermittently.

Occasional control. The robot may achieve a few shoves or wedge lifts on the opponent, or brings its weapon to bear a few times. It may dodge or escape a few of its opponent’s attacks. It shows some control of its position relative to its opponent. It often has to correct its aim while driving.

Adequate control. The robot achieves several attempted attacks, and some effective attacks. It avoids some of the opponent’s attacks. it only occasionally has to correct its driving aim

Good control. The robot executes many attempted attacks or several effective attacks. It dodges or escapes regularly. It generally drives to its target without correcting its aim. It can often compensate for its opponent’s motion.

Excellent control. The robot executes many quality attacks. It rarely misses its target. It dodges or escapes regularly and recovers quickly. It is rarely out of position relative to its opponent.

Transcendent control. The robot attacks at will and can stay on its opponent. It dodges most blows or escapes almost all attempts to lift, pin, or grapple. It rarely misses and does not need to stop to take aim or correct aim.


2.2.1. Scoring Aggression
Aggression scoring will be based on the relative amount of time each robot spends
attacking the other.
Attacks do not have to be successful to count for aggression points, but a distinction will
be made between chasing a fleeing opponent and randomly crashing around the arena.
Points will not be awarded for aggression if a robot is completely uncontrollable or unable
to do more than turn in place, even if it is trying to attack. 0
Sitting still and waiting for your opponent to drive into your weapon does not count for
aggression points, even if it is an amazingly destructive weapon.

Awarding Aggression Points
o A Combatant who attacks a full-body spinner (e.g. intentionally drives
within the perimeter of the spinning weapon) is automatically considered
the aggressor and awarded a 3-2 score in the case where both robots
consistently attack, or both robots consistently avoid each other.
Note: a Combatant is considered a "full body spinner" if the robot cannot be attacked
without moving within the perimeter of the spinning weapon.
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Satisfaction is proportional to effort and results.

quote:

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90% of the time Jolt gets any hits on the opponent is when the opponent runs into Jolt... So in theory, if anyone just stayed away from Jolt in the arena, you'd never land a hit (Well maybe on the wall) and you'd never win a battle...

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What is "Game balance" if one type of bot has a advantage with the judging? .

This is about keeping it fair and simple - not constantly repeating a set of long winded, complex rules just because they favour bots with active weapons.

No one said both bots couldnt get aggression and no one said both bots had to move at the same speed . Slow moving bots with poor control would not likely get aggression or control points and they shouldnt! .

enjoy
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Some people pass cars - some people get passed by cars

I give up! If you can't see how biased that is, its not worth discussing. If you want black & white rules, play with RC cars.
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Australian 2015 Featherweight champion
UK 2016 Gladiator champion

Let me guess moth you have a umm.. wedge
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A journey of a million miles begins with a single step followed by a hell of a lot of other steps so get walking

That’s exactly what I am saying;

only fast powerful aggressive bots can win.

The thing is after a short time we will have a full field of fast powerful aggressive bots.

No variety = BORING.

If that is what Daniel wants and he thinks by jazzing it up with pyro effects to sell it to the crowd he is the EO its his decision but I think everyone can see that the careful Rock Paper Scissors balance will end up as rocks bumping into rocks.

They are where they are to bring about a situation where no one design has an unbeatable advantage over any other.

As it is build quality and driving skill are far more important than design as in type of bot.

The rules existed long before almost all of the bots on the current list were built.

If someone wants to build the bot with the optimum chance of winning there is nothing stopping them considering the rules and judging criteria.

Coming along later and complaining that you think you haven’t made the optimum choice and changing the situation for everyone else seems a little drastic.


The control aggression rules would probably work well in the wacky race but it’s easier to count laps and see who crosses the finish line first.

A robot fight can be a lot more.

I think for the long term good of the sport setting the goals in such a way as to encourage the maximum variety and most way out bots as possible is the way to go.

Having the bots as the real stars of the show, not house bots, pyro effects and a lot of cloned pushy bots as cannon fodder.
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Satisfaction is proportional to effort and results.

As you say Garry, skill is a huge factor. I'm happy to admit to being a crap driver, so I use building skills to even things out for me. There is another side to Daniel's rules suggestion: it would probably make crushers completely uncompetitive. I can't see anything other than bricks and flippers in his competition.
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Australian 2015 Featherweight champion
UK 2016 Gladiator champion

hmmm ..I really dont understand how making the judging simple at this point turns the comp into a battle of the bricks ?.

If people dont have to worry about losing points for getting scratched or having relatively minor damage then they can focus more on their bots and weapons .. That must open things up for more variety.

After all a MDF robot loses huge points if a spinner damages minor but spectacular parts of it .

If anything turns the comp into a armoured brick battle it is surly spinners that do that , not judging.

As for "only fast powerful aggressive bots" being able to win ? , what happend to TKO? , are spinners so unable to compete that they couldnt win a fair fight ?. Are active weapons so ineffective that they cannot damage another bot and make them undriveable - I think not ...

Apparently crushers cannot be aggressive or drive well ? - how will they catch their pray then ?

This is simply about making things easy to judge at this point , and fair for all robots - as I said - either ban the bots you dont like or lets try to be fair .

When was the last time a slow moving non agressive bot won a comp ?

enjoy
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Some people pass cars - some people get passed by cars

Btw .. I have a "full body lifter" that is in the shape of a wedge , If you have watched vincent fight then you would know that the wedge is mostly inaffective.

I am building a version of Vincent with an active weapon (Maximillion) as I am not afraid of a fair fight , and yes it will be designed to hopefully damage other robots.
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Some people pass cars - some people get passed by cars

[quote= but I think everyone can see that the careful Rock Paper Scissors balance will end up as rocks bumping into rocks.[/quote]

What careful balance?
Its more like careful you dont get a cut when your showing control and aggression on a stationary robot or you will lose.

I can think of many fights that went sour because of the careful way the rules are set up to favour spinners, We dont have a paper, rock, scissors judging system happening atm in Vic, we have the rules favouring robots that can cut and leave a mark not necesarrily doing any real damage and that for some reeason is weighted highly.
That is so un-balanced
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Bots that do not destroy you, only make you stronger.